love* in the time of plague (and by love* i mean brexit* and other dreary matters of uk politics)

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i know it's a grim thought btw but to some extent BoJo's popularity is "organic", or at least people have bought into the long-established persona. nobody wd've been praying for Gove to recover.


Idk, he took a serious beating post-referendum for about five minutes til he was put in shadow cabinet, his coverage during the election couldn’t hide what he was to voters. He is a far way from his 2008 self imo.

gyac, Saturday, 18 April 2020 22:51 (four years ago) link

I sometimes wonder about the veracity of his approval ratings but this is a cursed country

calzino, Saturday, 18 April 2020 22:53 (four years ago) link

12 Mar 2020 - 'Herd immunity' will be vital to stopping coronavirus

18 April 2020 - I am literally gobsmacked https://t.co/U5eYQJEiZT pic.twitter.com/bfoSNJgdZa

— 'Client Journalism' Expert (@PopulismExpert) April 18, 2020

this cunt get's to be "literally gobsmacked" in the same week he asks in the spectator: has the furlough created a lazy arsed degenerate welfare state. cunt!

calzino, Saturday, 18 April 2020 23:17 (four years ago) link

Boris-as-meme definitely cuts through, and resonates either as an icon of gumption & general good energy or as a sloppy privileged buffoon amongst ppl who will never really give a shit abt politics

ogmor, Saturday, 18 April 2020 23:56 (four years ago) link

Note to people sharing the Sunday Times article by cutting and pasting snippets: you are not helping. Newspapers are dying right now. If you want to support journalism, link to the newspaper itself. People get 2 free articles a week from the Times when they sign up

— Hadley Freeman (@HadleyFreeman) April 19, 2020

u loves to see it!

calzino, Sunday, 19 April 2020 09:13 (four years ago) link

oh no, what if people are spreading the word about how awful Bojo is but killing the Sunday Times at the same time? disaster

clap for content-providers (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 19 April 2020 09:18 (four years ago) link

I would say these people "cutting and pasting snippets" and not also linking the full archived version could do better

calzino, Sunday, 19 April 2020 09:25 (four years ago) link

"Newspapers are dying right now"

A pity some of our most superfluous workers who write for these shitrags don't seem to be dying in great numbers.

calzino, Sunday, 19 April 2020 09:28 (four years ago) link

Boris popularity isn't organic per se, but it could become so. He got Brexit done single-handedly and the potentially risky ICU stunt seems to have worked as intended

anvil, Sunday, 19 April 2020 09:33 (four years ago) link

There could be more to come on the ICanseeU stunt!

calzino, Sunday, 19 April 2020 09:35 (four years ago) link

In some ways I think a power vacuum or a lazy useless Boris would be safer than Gove, because he has lots of shit ideas and has that possessed ventriloquist's dummy energy to see them through.

I dunno, we have Dominic Cummings to be a shit idea possessed ventriloquist's dummy right now. I go back & forth on which sounds worse tbh

(DC was originally Gove's man and might stay on but any attempt to oust Boris might take them both out... or not, because nobody seems to care about anything behind the scenes, and Gove probably has an address book full of creepy shit-idea weirdos to replace him with anyway)

even if he did good work and saved thousands of needless deaths.

iirc the lesson of y2k is that if you stop bad things from happening nobody ever says "thank you", they just say "you made it up, bad things were never going to happen and we'll use this as evidence that listening is bad and we can do what we like in all sorts of unrelated circumstances, thanks"

a passing spacecadet, Sunday, 19 April 2020 09:44 (four years ago) link

Of course Hadley Freeman is upset at any harm coming to her favourite terf rag.

gyac, Sunday, 19 April 2020 09:45 (four years ago) link

Defending the government’s initial response to the coronavirus outbreak amid claims it missed chances to lessen impact during February and March, Michael Gove has admitted that “profound lessons” would be learnt.

During an interview on the BBC’s Andrew Marr show Gove confirmed the prime minister did not attend five Cobra meetings at start of coronavirus crisis. However, he added that PMs don’t attend most of these meetings.

“He didn’t. But then he wouldn’t.....because most Cobra meetings don’t have the Prime Minister attending them,” he said.

He added: “All governments make mistakes, including our own. We seek to learn and to improve every day.

“It is the case, I’m sure, at some point in the future, that there will be an opportunity for us to look back, to reflect and to learn some profound lessons.”

In an earlier interview today Gove had declined to deny that Johnson missed five consecutive emergency meetings in the build-up to the coronavirus crisis. Pressed on a series of allegations about delays and failings as the virus started to spread from China, detailed in the Sunday Times, Gove said that some elements of the story were “slightly off-beam”, but repeatedly declined to say which.

Number None, Sunday, 19 April 2020 09:54 (four years ago) link

I think he said the Sunday Times story about Johnson missing 5 Cobra meetings was 'grotesque'? True but grotesque?

The Corbynite Maneuver (Tom D.), Sunday, 19 April 2020 09:55 (four years ago) link

there is something drastically fucked when a right-wing shitrag part owned by Murdoch is doing more to hold the government to account than the leader of the Labour Party. All part some other game to them of course.. but still.

calzino, Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:08 (four years ago) link

Gove has to socially distance from that Times report because he’s favoured by KRM but only nerds will know that.

santa clause four (suzy), Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:12 (four years ago) link

He's also a liar. Another one.

The Corbynite Maneuver (Tom D.), Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:23 (four years ago) link

The times article for Hadley Freeman:

On the third Friday of January a silent and stealthy killer was creeping across the world. Passing from person to person and borne on ships and planes, the coronavirus was already leaving a trail of bodies.

The virus had spread from China to six countries and was almost certainly in many others. Sensing the coming danger, the British government briefly went into wartime mode that day, holding a meeting of Cobra, its national crisis committee.

But it took just an hour that January 24 lunchtime to brush aside the coronavirus threat. Matt Hancock, the health secretary, bounced out of Whitehall after chairing the meeting and breezily told reporters the risk to the UK public was "low".

This was despite the publication that day of an alarming study by Chinese doctors in the medical journal, The Lancet. It assessed the lethal potential of the virus, for the first time suggesting it was comparable to the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic, which killed up to 50 million people.

Unusually, Boris Johnson had been absent from Cobra. The committee which includes ministers, intelligence chiefs and military generals gathers at moments of great peril such as terrorist attacks, natural disasters and other threats to the nation and is normally chaired by the prime minister.

Johnson had found time that day, however, to join in a lunar new year dragon eyes ritual as part of Downing Street's reception for the Chinese community, led by the country's ambassador.

It was a big day for Johnson and there was a triumphal mood in Downing Street because the withdrawal treaty from the European Union was being signed in the late afternoon. It could have been the defining moment of his premiership but that was before the world changed.

That afternoon his spokesman played down the looming threat from the east and reassured the nation that we were "well prepared for any new diseases". The confident, almost nonchalant, attitude displayed that day in January would continue for more than a month.

Johnson went on to miss four further Cobra meetings on the virus. As Britain was hit by unprecedented flooding, he completed the EU withdrawal, reshuffled his cabinet and then went away to the grace-and-favour country retreat at Chevening where he spent most of the two weeks over half-term with his pregnant fiancée, Carrie Symonds.

It would not be until March 2 another five weeks that Johnson would attend a Cobra meeting about the coronavirus. But by then it was almost certainly too late. The virus had sneaked into our airports, our trains, our workplaces and our homes. Britain was on course for one of the worst infections of the most deadly virus to have hit the world in more than a century.

Last week, a senior adviser to Downing Street broke ranks and blamed the weeks of complacency on a failure of leadership in cabinet. In particular, the prime minister was singled out.

"There's no way you're at war if your PM isn't there," the adviser said. "And what you learn about Boris was he didn't chair any meetings. He liked his country breaks. He didn't work weekends. It was like working for an old-fashioned chief executive in a local authority 20 years ago. There was a real sense that he didn't do urgent crisis planning. It was exactly like people feared he would be."

INQUIRY 'INEVITABLE' One day there will inevitably be an inquiry into the lack of preparations during those "lost" five weeks from January 24. There will be questions about when politicians understood the severity of the threat, what the scientists told them and why so little was done to equip the National Health Service for the coming crisis. It will be the politicians who will face the most intense scrutiny.

Among the key points likely to be explored will be why it took so long to recognise an urgent need for a massive boost in supplies of personal protective equipment (PPE) for health workers; ventilators to treat acute respiratory symptoms; and tests to detect the infection.

Any inquiry may also ask whether the government's failure to get to grips with the scale of the crisis in those early days had the knock-on effect of the national lockdown being introduced days or even weeks too late, causing many thousands more unnecessary deaths.

An Insight investigation has talked to scientists, academics, doctors, emergency planners, public officials and politicians about the root of the crisis and whether the government should have known sooner and acted more swiftly to kick-start the Whitehall machine and put the NHS onto a war footing.

They told us that, contrary to the official line, Britain was in a poor state of readiness for a pandemic. Emergency stockpiles of PPE had severely dwindled and gone out of date after becoming a low priority in the years of austerity cuts. The training to prepare key workers for a pandemic had been put on hold for two years while contingency planning was diverted to deal with a possible no-deal Brexit.

This made it doubly important that the government hit the ground run-ning in late January and early February. Scientists said the threat from the coming storm was clear. Indeed, one of the government's key advisory committees was given a dire warning a month earlier than has previously been admitted about the prospect of having to deal with mass casualties.

It was a message repeated throughout February but the warnings appear to have fallen on deaf ears. The need, for example, to boost emergency supplies of protective masks and gowns for health workers was pressing, but little progress was made in obtaining the items from the manufacturers, mainly in China.

Instead, the government sent supplies the other way shipping 279,000 items of its depleted stockpile of protective equipment to China during this period, following a request for help from the authorities there.

IMPENDING DANGER The prime minister had been sunning himself with his girlfriend in the millionaires' Caribbean resort of Mustique when China first alerted the World Health Organisation (WHO) on December 31 that several cases of an unusual pneumonia had been recorded in Wuhan, a city of 11 million people in Hubei province.

In the days that followed China initially claimed the virus could not be transmitted from human to human, which should have been reassuring. But this did not ring true to Britain's public health academics and epidemiologists who were texting each other, eager for more information, in early January.

Devi Sridhar, professor of global public health at Edinburgh University, had predicted in a talk two years earlier that a virus might jump species from an animal in China and spread quickly to become a human pandemic. So the news from Wuhan set her on high alert.

"In early January a lot of my global health colleagues and I were kind of discussing 'What's going on?'" she recalled. "China still hadn't confirmed the virus was human-to-human. A lot of us were suspecting it was because it was a respiratory pathogen and you wouldn't see the numbers of cases that we were seeing out of China if it was not human-to-human. So that was disturbing."

By as early as January 16 the professor was on Twitter calling for swift action to prepare for the virus. "Been asked by journalists how serious #WuhanPneumonia outbreak is," she wrote. "My answer: take it seriously because of cross-border spread (planes means bugs travel far & fast), likely human-to-human transmission and previous outbreaks have taught overresponding is better than delaying action."

Events were now moving fast. Four hundred miles away in London, its campus next to the Royal Albert Hall, a team at Imperial College's School of Public Health led by Professor Neil Ferguson produced its first modelling assessment of the likely impact of the virus. On Friday, January 17, its report noted the "worrying" news that three cases of the virus had been discovered outside China two in Thailand and one in Japan. While acknowledging many unknowns, researchers calculated that there could already be as many as 4,000 cases. The report warned: "The magnitude of these numbers suggests substantial human-tohuman transmission cannot be ruled out. Heightened surveillance, prompt information-sharing and enhanced preparedness are recommended." By now the mystery bug had been identified as a type of coronavirus a large family of viruses that can cause infections ranging from the common cold to severe acute respiratory syndrome (Sars). There had been two reported deaths from the virus and 41 patients had been taken ill.

The following Wednesday, January 22, the government convened its first meeting of its scientific advisory group for emergencies (Sage) to discuss the virus. Its membership is secret but it is usually chaired by the government's chief scientific adviser, Sir Patrick Vallance, and chief medical adviser, Professor Chris Whitty. Downing Street advisers are also present.

There were new findings that day with Chinese scientists warning that the virus had an unusually high infectivity rate of up to 3.0, which meant each person with the virus would typically infect up to three more people.

One of those present was Imperial's Ferguson, who was already working on his own estimate putting infectivity at 2.6 and possibly as high as 3.5 which he sent to ministers and officials in a report on the day of the Cobra meeting on January 24. The Spanish flu had an estimated infectivity rate of between 2.0 and 3.0, so Ferguson's finding was shocking.

The professor's other bombshell in the same report was that there needed to be a 60% cut in the transmission rate which meant stopping contact between people. In layman's terms it meant a lockdown, a move that would paralyse an economy already facing a battering from Brexit. At the time such a suggestion was unthinkable in the government and belonged to the world of post-apocalypse movies.

The growing alarm among scientists appears not to have been heard or heeded by policy-makers. After the January 25 Cobra meeting, the chorus of reassurance was not just from Hancock and the prime minister's spokesman: Whitty was confident too.

"Cobra met today to discuss the situation in Wuhan, China," said Whitty. "We have global experts monitoring the situation around the clock and have a strong track record of managing new forms of infectious disease ... there are no confirmed cases in the UK to date."

However, by then there had been 1,000 cases worldwide and 41 deaths, mostly in Wuhan. A Lancet report that day presented a study of 41 coronavirus patients admitted to hospital in Wuhan which found that more than half had severe breathing problems, a third required intensive care and six had died.

And there was now little doubt that the UK would be hit by the virus. A study by Southampton University has shown that 190,000 people flew into the UK from Wuhan and other high-risk Chinese cities between January and March. The researchers estimated that up to 1,900 of these passengers would have been infected with the coronavirus almost guaranteeing the UK would become a centre of the subsequent pandemic.

Sure enough, five days later on Wednesday, January 29, the first coronavirus cases on British soil were found when two Chinese nationals from the same family fell ill at a hotel in York. The next day, the government raised the threat level from low to moderate.

THE PANDEMIC PLAN On January 31 or Brexit day as it had become known there was a rousing 11pm speech by the prime minister promising that the withdrawal from the European Union would be the dawn of a new era unleashing the British people who would who would "grow in confidence" month by month.

By this time, there was good reason for the government's top scientific advisers to feel creeping unease about the virus. The WHO had declared the coronavirus a global emergency just the day before and scientists at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine had confirmed to Whitty in a private meeting of the Nervtag advisory committee on respiratory illness that the virus's infectivity could be as bad as Ferguson's worst estimate several days earlier.

The official scientific advisers were willing to concede in public that there might be several cases of the coronavirus in the UK. But they had faith that the country's plans for a pandemic would prove robust.

This was probably a big mistake. An adviser to Downing Street with extensive knowledge of Britain's emergency preparations speaking off the record says their confidence in "the plan" was misplaced. While a possible pandemic had been listed as the No 1 threat to the nation for many years, the source says that in reality it had long since stopped being treated as such.

Several emergency planners and scientists said that the plans to protect the UK in a pandemic had once been a top priority and had been well-funded for a decade following the 9/11 terrorist attacks in 2001. But then austerity cuts struck. "We were the envy of the world," the source said, "but pandemic planning became a casualty of the austerity years when there were more pressing needs."

The last rehearsal for a pandemic was a 2016 exercise codenamed Cygnus which predicted the health service would collapse and highlighted a long list of shortcomings including, presciently, a lack of PPE and intensive care ventilators.

But an equally lengthy list of recommendations to address the deficiencies was never implemented. The source said preparations for a no-deal Brexit "sucked all the blood out of pandemic planning" in the following years.

In the year leading up to the coronavirus outbreak key government committee meetings on pandemic planning were repeatedly "bumped" off the diary to make way for discussions about more pressing issues such as the beds crisis in the NHS. Training for NHS staff with protective equipment and respirators was also neglected, the source alleges.

Members of the government advisory group on pandemics are said to have felt powerless. "They would joke between themselves, 'Haha let's hope we don't get a pandemic,' because there wasn't a sinfrom

It was a massive spider's web of failing; every domino has fallen.

COVID and the Gang (jim in vancouver), Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:24 (four years ago) link

Freeman’s tweet is presumably a dig at Owen Jones above all else.

Gove and Sunak are apparently COVID hawks, just like Johnson. Hancock isn’t but I’d imagine that has more to do with keeping the NHS from completely collapsing rather than deep concern for the nation’s grandparents.

ShariVari, Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:34 (four years ago) link

Per Tim Shipman:

“Run this hot.” pic.twitter.com/efIY6ygwBk

— Dr Beale (@bealelab) April 19, 2020

ShariVari, Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:37 (four years ago) link

What does a hawk mean in this context?

Matt DC, Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:39 (four years ago) link

run what hot? The faucet of death?

calzino, Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:41 (four years ago) link

FWIW The Times (and presumably by extension the Sunday Times) can do what it wants - it supported Remain in 2016 after all against Murdoch's wishes. So this might have less to do with the fact that Murdoch wants Johnson out and more to do with the fact that this is the sort of story that really sells newspapers or digital subs at a time when the industry is collapsing.

Matt DC, Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:46 (four years ago) link

I’m interpreting hawk as meaning favouring a policy of lifting lockdown asap and reverting to herd immunity.

ShariVari, Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:48 (four years ago) link

Deaths are acceptable to protect the economy, basically

clap for content-providers (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:49 (four years ago) link

they might need some hawks to help clear up the corpse-piles in the streets if they want to go down that route again.

calzino, Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:50 (four years ago) link

Don't tell me Hancock is developing a backbone?

The Corbynite Maneuver (Tom D.), Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:51 (four years ago) link

This is your actual “they want to let people die” smoking gun line. Their defence will be “there isn’t really an alternative”, which ignores that the reason there isn’t one is because you’ve fucked up testing capacity.

stet, Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:52 (four years ago) link

FWIW The Times (and presumably by extension the Sunday Times) can do what it wants - it supported Remain in 2016 after all against Murdoch's wishes. So this might have less to do with the fact that Murdoch wants Johnson out and more to do with the fact that this is the sort of story that really sells newspapers or digital subs at a time when the industry is collapsing.

it supported Remain but has been a bit Brexity thereafter and has intermittent climate change denialists and other dangers expounding in its pages - still less bad than other Murdoch rags but I feel like there might be a bit more pressure on these days? I may have the wrong end of the stick, of course...

Also I don't know what page this article actually appeared on but they seem to have a thing lately where there's a big anti-govt scoop that feels like front page news or at least a prominent p.2, but it's actually hidden in double-figure page numbers, and you wonder if sources who could've risked their careers might have liked the gesture to go a bit more appreciated...

a passing spacecadet, Sunday, 19 April 2020 10:59 (four years ago) link

Yeah maybe - a lot of the climate change and culture war anti-snowflake stuff it's gone big on in the last few years might just be an editorial decision though rather than any top down interference. This has got to be a front page story though?

One of the most damning things in the report is that the UK supposedly had the best pandemic preparedness plan in the world and just ignored it - while Singapore followed it.

Matt DC, Sunday, 19 April 2020 11:04 (four years ago) link

Also it's basically unheard of for any policy to have the backing of 90% of the British public so I wouldn't expect them to even try and get away with running this hot for a while.

Matt DC, Sunday, 19 April 2020 11:05 (four years ago) link

I didn't realise lockdown was polling so high, GBP might be easily brainwashed idiots but they haven't lost their instinct for self-preservation yet!

calzino, Sunday, 19 April 2020 11:14 (four years ago) link

Yes - a lot of the thinking behind that plan was that the public wouldn’t wear China-style restrictions.

Instead it appears we are not as hardy as they thought/all big fans of curtain-twitching/don’t trust them/like not dying gasping for air in an underfunded ward/your reason here.

(Italy might tbf have had something to do with lockdown becoming more appealing)

stet, Sunday, 19 April 2020 11:16 (four years ago) link

Gavin Shuker was among those – along with Chris Leslie – who had more to lose than most from his rebellion. When we spoke, he was in the middle of self-quarantine as his partner had mild symptoms of the virus; he was not finding that lockdown was conducive to job-hunting. Still, he believes standing up for his principles was the most rewarding experience of his political life. He has been spending his afternoons, like all of us, watching the briefings about coronavirus. “People might ask me in 30 years ‘what did you achieve in your time in politics?’,” he says. “I’m no fan of this government obviously. But still, I will be able to say I helped prevent Jeremy Corbyn from leading us through a huge national crisis. And to be honest, I’ll take that."

rí an techno (seandalai), Sunday, 19 April 2020 11:22 (four years ago) link

Where’s that from?

gyac, Sunday, 19 April 2020 11:23 (four years ago) link

by losing his seat? lol

calzino, Sunday, 19 April 2020 11:23 (four years ago) link

Re: the Sunday Times - its executive editor is the son of the late Guardian editor Peter Preston and the husband of leading TERF Janice Turner. Is there anything more which needs to be said about centrist bigotry not being cancelled out by Remain views?

santa clause four (suzy), Sunday, 19 April 2020 11:31 (four years ago) link

Right from the get go, @SkyNews not giving Iain Duncan Smith an inch.

More 👏 interviewers 👏 like 👏 this 👏 please 👏 pic.twitter.com/gqQttEzMlb

— Rory Cashin (@roarEcashin) April 19, 2020



I said it during the election, but Sky is still far better than the BBC.

gyac, Sunday, 19 April 2020 11:41 (four years ago) link

I said it during the election, but Sky is still far better than the BBC.

Obviously Sky are a couple of levels above the BBC no one is going to dispute that, but I don't see how this is a good interview. Two people speaking at once is a terrible interview

anvil, Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:03 (four years ago) link

Where’s that from?

― gyac, Sunday, 19 April 2020 11:23 (forty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/apr/19/a-year-on-did-change-uk-change-anything

rí an techno (seandalai), Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:11 (four years ago) link

I just couldn't think of any comment to add to the insanity on display there. Corbyn Derangement System I know, but pointing to the current government's handling of Covid as the thing you're most proud of in your political career...

rí an techno (seandalai), Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:12 (four years ago) link

what exactly does gavin shuker think jeremy corbyn would have done to tackle coronavirus which would be worse than how the current clown car of cunts has handled it

He is married to Brogmus, Linda. (bizarro gazzara), Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:13 (four years ago) link

Used it as a cover to exterminate the entire UK Jewish community.

The Corbynite Maneuver (Tom D.), Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:16 (four years ago) link

Empty shelves, Venezuela, Putin, the list goes on

anvil, Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:20 (four years ago) link

His ineffectual weak iron grip tightening

anvil, Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:21 (four years ago) link

Also I don't know what page this article actually appeared on but they seem to have a thing lately where there's a big anti-govt scoop that feels like front page news or at least a prominent p.2, but it's actually hidden in double-figure page numbers, and you wonder if sources who could've risked their careers might have liked the gesture to go a bit more appreciated...

on the front page, but not the lead story

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EV6sV2pXYAIlNeZ?format=jpg&name=large

Number None, Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:27 (four years ago) link

Used it as a cover to exterminate the entire UK Jewish community.


Disproportionate numbers of the community are dying now under Boris and not a peep out of Shuker.

gyac, Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:32 (four years ago) link

My questions really, boiled down to one: did Change UK change anything?


Changed the number of wreckers in the PLP

gyac, Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:34 (four years ago) link

He kept a little diary of his thoughts. “The questions that kept cropping up for me back then were,” he says: “Do you run away? Do you wait for them to come for you?


I’d pay good money to read these feverish imaginings about the evil trots after big milk tbh.

gyac, Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:36 (four years ago) link

At the same time that Shuker was sounding out Labour MPs, Chuka Umunna and Chris Leslie, who had shared an office at Westminster, were having conversations with likely Tory MPs. Brexit had fractured party loyalties. Umunna was not sure at that time how many Tories would join them. “They were two to three years behind Labour in being hijacked by an ugly populism – in their case, of the right – and it was hard to tell when that would happen, to what degree,” he says.


ah yes, the ugly corbynite populism of... a modest degree of social democracy

He is married to Brogmus, Linda. (bizarro gazzara), Sunday, 19 April 2020 12:44 (four years ago) link


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