Rolling Music Theory Thread

Maybe the key change thing messed up the algorithm and decided the Etta James version was "closer"?

First became of Aimee Nolte, with this video I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMiCg8sDQh4

Also wondering how often Sinatra sings a whole step down from the sheet music, based on two such examples.

My neighbor - another one! - played in the Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra for a while, which features largely in that video.

A bass player told me something interesting John Clayton told him about fingering.

I don't know how much y'all are interested in this stuff, but here's another unusual and interesting one to my thinking!

https://thisiheard.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-storybook-beads-of-innocence-1968.html

Alright, I have a pivot chord question for y'all.

Mamas and Papas, "Words of Love." Key of Ab with some mode mixture.

In the bridge, we have a phrase modulation to the key of F minor, but it moves back quickly. Chord progression is F minor - Bb minor - Gb - Eb.

So, it gets to the dominant of Ab at the end there to modulate back. But what do you call the Gb major chord? Which key is it part of and how does it lead to Eb?

is it the bVII in the original key of Ab major?

Yes! But somehow I don't feel like we're back in Ab yet. bVII is not a dominant prep chord that leads to V.

Maybe the bridge is in Db, not Fm

This type of movement is called "mediant movement" iirc, it's when your chord moves up or down "two steps" to a chord that seems unrelated, but for which there is one (or two) shared pitches.

The best example I can think of is C-major to Eb-major. Sounds like it should make no sense, but it does because of the commonly shared G between the two chords.

Firstly, "Words Of Love" is drawing from all corners of possibility within the key centre (Ab-major)-- there are ab-minor chords, bVII chords, weird implied secondary dominants, Cass is routinely singing the Gb over the Ab-major so it always feels unstable.

The bridge is not in f-minor just because it begins on an f-minor chord. We're still in Ab-major. It's a vi - ii - bVII - V progression, that's all.

The reason why Bb-minor connects to Gb-major so readily is that aforementioned "mediant movement"-- the two chords are connected by the shared Bb. Same goes for the following Eb-major chord. These chords don't seem connected (because they aren't, really) but that shared note connects them.

(What is even more interesting is when you get mediant movement where there are NO shared pitches, C-major to Eb-minor i.e., probably the loveliest dissonance out there)

The verse chord progression on this song is really fucking weird I gotta say. Ab-major - Gb-major - Cb-major - Bb-major (and then either A-major or Eb-major). What is that, I - bVII - bIII - II (bII)?

The trick is that the song is functionally in ab-MINOR, but they always feature the root chord as major. It's the same trick as on "You Keep Me Hanging On" (The Supremes)-- it sounds like for all intents and purposes the song is in a minor key, but whenever it comes back around to the I chord, there it is, we're major-- it's like a perpetually rising sun, or like an abusive partner who keeps treating you shitty and then apologizing

thanks for the analysis, fgti. never knew the name for that.

it sounds like for all intents and purposes the song is in a minor key, but whenever it comes back around to the I chord, there it is, we're major

doesn't 'gimme shelter' pull this trick, too?

Yep. It's a common thing... any major-key song that prominently features a bVI is gonna have this effect (bVI containing the flattened third of the I chord, i.e., creating a minor-major ambiguity regarding the key centre)

Here's the wiki for what I was describing. "Chromatic mediant" is the correct term, it seems. The wiki acknowledges divergent definitions of the term, as to whether or not they should include mediant relationships with no shared pitches, which Allen Forte describes as "doubly-chromatic mediants".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_mediant

So if there are two shared pitches (C-major to e-minor) it's a diatonic mediant
If there is one shared pitch (C-major to Eb-major) it's a chromatic mediant
If there are no shared pitches (C-major to eb-minor) it's a doubly-chromatic mediant

Historically, chromatic mediant relationships are saved for surprising modulations to B-sections in the Classical period-- see the Mozart example on the wiki, or think of Chopin's glorious pivot from Ab-major to E-major for the B-section of the famous Ab-major Polonaise.

More common in historical examples-- and I'm sure there's another term for it, but it's effectively the same thing-- is a more unguent "mediant movement" from a dim-7 where there are TWO or THREE shared pitches: f#dim7 to fm7, or f#dim7 to F7. Because dim-7ths, as a stack of minor 3rds, are "rootless", and can be built on any of the pitches-- f#dim7 = adim7 = cdim7 = ebdim7-- one could interpret the movement from f#dim7 to F7 as being, actually, a mediant movement (adim7 to F7). Check out Chopin's famous e-minor Prelude to see this movement happening literally every two bars.

I do think there's a modulation to F. It could rest there if they'd chosen to. It feels like a new key to me, and this is because of what you say about the home key of Ab, that there's the constant minor third and minor seventh. If it's a minor modality in Ab, then F is not a relative minor.

But VC, I like your thinking on Db as the related major scale to explain the Gb chord.

For the bridge to be a proper modulation to f-minor, I would need to hear some kind of a cadence in that key, and I don't-- but that's my own interpretation!

Catching up on this now, I definitely agree with fgti that a modulation generally requires a cadence in the new key (by definition). Esp since vi can work as a tonic substitute, and since the singer sings the tonic over it here, I don't see the grounds for hearing a modulation to the relative minor key here. I can see the mediant logic; also bVII is a common modal substitute for the dominant (or a pre-tonic chord anyway) and I hear it that way here - bVII-V sounds like a prolonged dominant to me, particularly with the melody emphasizing ^2 over both chords. The progression could easily resolve to I after the bVII.

The verse mixes modes but I do hear it in Ab major. The first two phrases both start on the major ^3 and the minor ^3 that starts the next one feels like the borrowed pitch to me.

This isn't bad for examples of bVII in 60s pop: http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/VOLUME22/Magnificent_flat-seventh.shtml

Maybe I shouldn't use the term "modulation" if it's going to be sticky. But here's my issue with it - I don't see what the point is of considering that first F minor chord in relation to Ab. Has the note F even been used in the entire song up until that point?

I was actually trying last night to come up with some other songs where requiring a cadence in order to say that a note has been tonicized is problematic for me and I came up with "See Emily Play." You can say that the chorus has not tonicized E just because that's the first chord, but I don't think that's how it's experienced in real time. When it goes to the A five bars later, then yeah, that E has morphed into the dominant of A, but again, I don't believe that's how it's experienced as heard.

"The verse mixes modes but I do hear it in Ab major."

There's four iterations of the chord in the verse, though, and third one is Ab minor.

And I realized in learning the song how much the third in the vocal melody at the very end feels like a Picardy.

Not sure I follow. The phrase ends with a V-I cadence in Ab and makes perfect sense in Ab. Using vi as a tonic substitute is pretty standard practice - it provides variety and a change of mood for the bridge but I don't know why you would not hear the submediant of Ab there. It doesn't need to appear earlier in the song for listeners to know that it fits in the key. Even if there WERE a modulation to F minor, the new key would still be heard in relation to Ab, as the relative minor, surely: how could you unhear the tonal context? xps

Don't the first two lines of the vocal melody start on C? I'll listen again but it's surprising that you would hear it as a Picardy.

Was typing this as you were posting the last two comments, perhaps it adds context to my thoughts:

"There's four iterations of the chord in the verse, though, and third one is Ab minor."

Sund4r, I know you were acknowledging the mode mixture. I tend to agree with seeing it generally as Ab major with bVII chords. The consideration of the tonic note at the beginning of the bridge is something I consider a separate matter.

I will say the Gb major chord in the bridge does not feel a dominant substitute in the key of Ab for me. It feels like a pivot.

"Don't the first two lines of the vocal melody start on C?"

Oh sure, but at the very end you have that very prominent Cb right before she goes up to the C natural.

Hearing the song in a different key for two bars seems like an overcomplicated explanation to me but I don't know how Gb could work as a pivot chord there even if you did. I mean, it would be a root-position Neapolitan chord in F minor and bVII in Ab but that seems pretty non-idiomatic.

For me, I don't care if it's overcomplicated. I want to know, most of all, what a given chord is doing, what is its relation to a tonal center. What does it feel like.

And the minor modality in Ab is strong enough for me that, when the bridge starts, I feel a shift. I know there's a C natural at the beginning of the verse melody, but the melodic line at the end of the verse, just prior to the bridge, is comprised entirely of notes from the B major scale.

Or Cb major scale if we're talking about minor modality in Ab

I actually feel like it can be more complicated to always have to try to reckon things to home keys unless there's a cadence.

There might be e.g. jazz pieces with a lot of chromatic harmony where I could see that but, in this case, Fm and Bbm are completely diatonic harmonies in Ab that lead to an authentic cadence in Ab within two bars, via a chord (Gb) that is more common in Ab (major or minor) than in F minor. I'm not sure we're even disagreeing on their function: we are both hearing Fm-Bb at the start of the bridge as T-PD movement and, at that point, it is ambiguous whether we will end up in F minor or come back and resolve in Ab. If the phrase ended with a cadence in F minor, I would agree that they function as i-iv in that key. Since we instead end up with V-I in Ab, I analyse vi as a deceptive substitute for the tonic.

Sorry, I analyse Fm as vi and a deceptive substitute for the tonic chord.

Once again typing while you were responding and I have this:

"but I don't know how Gb could work as a pivot chord there even if you did"

Yeah, and that was my reason for raising the question in the first place. It's not a pivot. I think VC had it right when he explained it in terms of the key of Db. But I think the repetition of notes in the bridge melody over the Gb major chord and then over the Eb chord, used as a dominant, highlights a change of tonality and the return to Ab as tonal center.

in this case, Fm and Bbm are completely diatonic harmonies in Ab

Right, but as I said, the melodic line right before it is not in Ab major; they're all notes relative to the Cb major scale.

Iirc, the vocal melody there mostly moves between Ab and Bb (with that one descent to F) and there is no Db chord in the bridge. How would you hear it in Db?xp

Right, but as I said, the melodic line right before it is not in Ab major; they're all notes relative to the Cb major scale.

Eh, the song mixes modes between Ab major and Ab minor but that doesn't mean Fm and Bbm are now chromatic harmonies or that we need to analyse a key change there.

Obv there's room for interpretation, as fgti says. I'm just arguing for mine.

Given the G natural in the vocal melody over the first two chords in the bridge, you would have to say that something changes relative to the tonal center when you get to the Gb chord. You could say, well, we're just momentarily throwing in some flat sevens here in what was, moments earlier, diatonic melodicism in either Ab major (as you think of it) or F minor (as I think of it).

Db as tonal center would be a way of reckoning the first three chords together, but yeah, it's problematic relative to the G naturals in the melody over the F minor and Bb minor chords.

doesn't mean Fm and Bbm are now chromatic harmonies or that we need to analyse a key change there

The need for me is in the fact that I don't think they function as a vi and as a ii. I don't think Ab Ionian is ever established. It's always with flat sevens and quite clearly Aeolian in the last part of the verse.

Or, not Aeolian, harmonic minor

I just hear it as a deceptive move back to major mode in a song that is already shifting between modes (maybe more than an earlier post of mine may have suggested?). You could analyse it instead as a brief move to F minor, the relative minor key of Ab major, en route to a V-I cadence in Ab, but I think it mostly amounts to saying the same thing.

Cool track btw! Thanks for bringing it up. The mixture is really interesting.

It is a cool track. I was thinking about how saying that I don't think they function as a vi chord and a ii chord leads to the question of - well, how are vi and ii chords supposed to function?

And I suppose there are many answers to that, but one way I think they can sort-of-function/sort-of-not-function is as chords used in a section that meanders. And that's how I would have to describe their use here IF we are saying it is still in the key of Ab. You start a new section on a vi chord, but then don't really do anything with it. You go to the ii, but then throw in a bVII (changing the mode), and then...straight to a dominant chord? That's some serious meandering.

But, the thing is, I do not think this song meanders in the slightest. I think it is quite crisp. I think each chord has a purpose. So, if I'm saying we're momentarily in the key of F minor, there are my purposeful chords - the tonic and the subdominant.

In functional harmony, ii is a pre-dominant; vi is a pre-dominant or a tonic substitute (most obv in a deceptive cadence but also sometimes at the beginning of a phrase, e.g. in the chorus of REO Speedwagon - "Take It on the Run"). I hear it the latter way here. I don't think of meandering as a harmonic function and it's not what I think is happening here.

Yeah, I was referring to meandering more as a non-function. vi and ii are not meandering in and of themselves, obviously. If I follow the idea that the whole thing is in Ab, the meandering is established when they don't lead anywhere.

And if I am to say that the whole thing is in Ab, I don't think they do lead anywhere. I don't think that bVII chord progresses from vi and ii. It changes the notes of the scale. It's not just a little coloration change either, a little mode mixture. That's diatonic melodicism in what I think is F minor for those two measures before you get the Gb chord.

"Take It On the Run" is a great example of a song with a major section starting on the vi chord where there is clearly NOT a change of key.

Two explanations were given for bVII that make sense to me in terms of progression from ii: mediant movement or dominant prolongation. Clearly you just don't agree. I don't really see why i-iv in F minor is more purposeful: where does the subdominant lead from there? It is still moving to bVII-V-I in Ab. The Gb chord makes less sense in F min than in Ab; if anything, Bbm would be the pivot chord and you end up in the same place. vi-ii as T-PD moving to dominant via an ambiguous chord (which can be explained) seems more purposeful to me than T-PD in F minor that never progress to the dominant ("go anywhere") in that key but move to an ambiguous chord and then go to the dominant of Ab. (The idea that this is in Db with no tonic resolution in either melody or harmony seems tbh far-fetched). The need to see things 'going somewhere' is why theorists usually insist on reaching a cadence in a new key before being willing to label a modulation!

There is a tendency in theorists to try and codify things by scale and by mode-- I've gotten into fire-fights in the past with people trying to impose "it's Phyrgian!" on to anything with a flattened-2nd and it just doesn't work like that. Theory is (in my eyes) meant to be a way of understanding how flighty inspiration works, a kind of reference point for composers to riff off of. It's not a Rosetta stone, you can't really unpack everything, and why would you want to?

I was just thinking about this thread yesterday when "Last Friday Night" by Katy Perry came on while I was grocery shopping. That song is, to my ears, in a major key, but it never lands on the I. Theorists would argue that the chords solidly place it in the relative minor. I would argue "but listen to the melody. It's on the tonic of the relative major the whole fucking time. It's major, it's just trying to trick you!"

The truth about "Words Of Love" is that it is functionally in TWO different keys. The chords map better to Cb-major than Ab-major. The strongest assertion of a key centre happens on chord 3 of the verse cycle-- Cb-major. The chord progression, thus, is essentially VI(7) - V - I, before it dips to Bb - A (or Bb - Eb, depending) to swoop in and make this Cb-major cadence a grand deception by giving you a strong II - bII - I back to Ab-major (or II - V - I, depending).

We can argue modes, we can argue key centres, but it's the ambiguity that makes this song so colourful... I mean, even the intro starts in E-major! Bizarre!

Or rather, you could argue it starts in Cb-major, even! A little Fb - Cb (IV - I) plagal cadence in the deceptive key centre of the song.