Rolling US Economy Into The Shitbin Thread

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My work just had a quarterly meeting for all employees, and they were similarly bullish about the market.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 26 March 2020 16:08 (four years ago) link

bodies? what bodies?

Yerac, Thursday, 26 March 2020 16:10 (four years ago) link

Tuchman has covid! https://nypost.com/2020/03/26/most-photographed-wall-street-trader-peter-tuchman-has-coronavirus/

Yerac, Thursday, 26 March 2020 16:43 (four years ago) link

god damn. that reminds me that i took this phone screenshot of him the other day (when stocks went way the hell up for the first time) and i meant to post it here

https://i.imgur.com/Gx2nNKw.jpg

stay well, peter tuchman. you're probably a crazy asshole, but i love your enthusiasm and i love how you wear your heart on your sleeve

Karl Malone, Thursday, 26 March 2020 16:48 (four years ago) link

when we hit the bottom of the shitbin will we be able to smell it?

brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 March 2020 17:57 (four years ago) link

This will be a big duh to anyone who has been paying attention to this longer than I have, but I look at the market today and am convinced that a) I understand nothing, b) it has zero connection to reality, and c) a few people who do understand are making billions. Historical (and then some) unemployment claims, mounting cases and mounting deaths, a train wreck in charge...and the market surges again. If this fund I took out ever gets back to par, I've made a promise to myself that I will cash it in pronto and return the money to the staid, boring bank and never think about it again.

clemenza, Thursday, 26 March 2020 20:05 (four years ago) link

Historical (and then some) unemployment claims, mounting cases and mounting deaths, a train wreck in charge...and the market surges again.

The market is not responding to any of the items you named. After all, dead and dying people contribute to the GDP, too. It is thinking that the Fed and Congress will be handing out several trillion in free money and how can that not be a Good Thing? By gawd they intend to be at the front of the line with hands extended.

A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 26 March 2020 20:22 (four years ago) link

die for the Dow

brooklyn suicide cult (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 26 March 2020 20:31 (four years ago) link

Boeing is the 51st US state.

Yerac, Thursday, 26 March 2020 20:45 (four years ago) link

Nationalize those fuckers yesterday (and give Washington state its own big chunk)

silby, Thursday, 26 March 2020 20:48 (four years ago) link

Statehood to be commemorated by celebratory airshow, featuring two 737s that crash into the bleachers

sorry for butt rockin (Neanderthal), Thursday, 26 March 2020 20:50 (four years ago) link

If this bounce holds, I'll be every bit as mystified. US just passed every other country in total cases, and we've barely even ramped up testing.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Thursday, 26 March 2020 21:55 (four years ago) link

also, aren't we being told we're headed toward 25-30% employment by early summer?

Karl Malone, Thursday, 26 March 2020 22:00 (four years ago) link

i hope you mean unemployment

ooga booga-ing for the bourgeoisie (voodoo chili), Thursday, 26 March 2020 22:13 (four years ago) link

haha, whoops, i do.

Karl Malone, Thursday, 26 March 2020 22:19 (four years ago) link

the thing about veering toward 50% unemployment is that at that point, it doesn't matter whether it's unemployment or employment. maybe that's the equilibrium we're tapering toward, for simplicity

Karl Malone, Thursday, 26 March 2020 22:21 (four years ago) link

what's the temperature? same temperature it is every day: 100

Karl Malone, Thursday, 26 March 2020 22:21 (four years ago) link

every job pays $1
gas costs $1

Karl Malone, Thursday, 26 March 2020 22:22 (four years ago) link

can't wait for Thermidor

silby, Thursday, 26 March 2020 22:22 (four years ago) link

ban all numbers that aren't in the inner circle hall of fame. only these numbers can be used:

1, 3, 5, 10, 50, 69, 100, 420, 1000, 1 million, 1 billion, 1 trillion, 100 trillion

Karl Malone, Thursday, 26 March 2020 22:23 (four years ago) link

man video games will be at Atari prices due to deflation

sorry for butt rockin (Neanderthal), Thursday, 26 March 2020 22:40 (four years ago) link

a company doesn't really need to have customers or employees to rally there days.

Yerac, Thursday, 26 March 2020 23:40 (four years ago) link

It's easy to maintain a market rally, simply give businesses 1 trillion dollars of free money every single day.

Dan I., Friday, 27 March 2020 14:11 (four years ago) link

Some businesses are even called Rally's, in the north anyway.

Nudeln und Klopapier Gore (Sufjan Grafton), Friday, 27 March 2020 14:13 (four years ago) link

some of it is just "if I buy for a dollar, how much can I sell for?" ... like, you have a dollar, do you want it just stay a dollar, or do you want your dollar to generate more dollars? So you put it in the market, rather than just holding it. ... idk, I don't have a whole lot invested, but I did make $500 in two days by buying airline stock on Monday and selling on Wednesday, based on, "they are so gonna bail out the airlines, when they actually do bail out the airlines, other investors are gonna be willing to pay more for shares of these airline stocks that have gone down really low."

sarahell, Friday, 27 March 2020 15:29 (four years ago) link

its all explained right here

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37eqoYbj1QM

frogbs, Friday, 27 March 2020 16:34 (four years ago) link

**i move away from the mic to not get sick**

Fuck the NRA (ulysses), Friday, 27 March 2020 17:02 (four years ago) link

lol

Karl Malone, Friday, 27 March 2020 17:08 (four years ago) link

weekly unemployment claims just hit 6.6 million

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 2 April 2020 13:40 (four years ago) link

6.66 million, surely

sign of the times

mh, Thursday, 2 April 2020 13:41 (four years ago) link

p sure more jobs now wiped out than added during the entirety of the Trump presidency -- and I don't mean that solely as a commentary on Trump, just a point of comparison.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 2 April 2020 13:41 (four years ago) link

stock market flat. I guess it's "already priced in" as they love to say on the street

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 2 April 2020 13:43 (four years ago) link

The mammoth US unemployment claims in their historical context. pic.twitter.com/UNDwhBMpZt

— Ben Riley-Smith (@benrileysmith) April 2, 2020

treeship., Friday, 3 April 2020 14:48 (four years ago) link

Woooowwwwww

Unparalleled Elegance (Old Lunch), Friday, 3 April 2020 14:53 (four years ago) link

yeah. i knew this was severe but didn't "get it" before i saw that chart.

treeship., Friday, 3 April 2020 14:57 (four years ago) link

yeah this is why the market dropped 10,000 points a couple weeks ago

frogbs, Friday, 3 April 2020 14:57 (four years ago) link

we closed down most of the businesses in this country to fight the pandemic i'm still confused by discussions of unemployment that don't start with this obvious fact??

Mordy, Friday, 3 April 2020 14:58 (four years ago) link

yes there are an enormous amount of unemployed that's bc we unemployed them over the last few weeks by diktat

Mordy, Friday, 3 April 2020 14:59 (four years ago) link

I can't help but worry that we are going to see worse soon -- the level of both corporate and personal debt default that's coming if this doesn't abet soon is going to be unprecedented.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 3 April 2020 15:01 (four years ago) link

Debt jubilee!!!!!

silby, Friday, 3 April 2020 15:01 (four years ago) link

xp -- I guess I'm not clear on what point you think that makes, Mordy? We "did it on purpose" but the economic effects would have been even worse if we hadn't. It was a "choice" but a choice dictated by an unprecedented scenario. Certain industries may never fully recover, others could take years.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 3 April 2020 15:02 (four years ago) link

I don't think hotels or airlines will ever operate at the levels they were operating again, for example. A lot of excessive business travel is going to permanently disappear.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 3 April 2020 15:03 (four years ago) link

my pt is that it's weird to be shocked about historically high unemployment numbers when you shut down a large % of the businesses in your country. it's not shocking, it's per plan.

Mordy, Friday, 3 April 2020 15:06 (four years ago) link

From airline pilot and popular aviation writer Patrick Smith, of Ask The Pilot, this very sobering report.

“Was that the last commercial flight I will ever pilot?"https://t.co/C41OpFjyxp pic.twitter.com/8looHR4enc

— James Fallows (@JamesFallows) April 2, 2020

mookieproof, Friday, 3 April 2020 15:08 (four years ago) link

xp to mordy

you don't think it's surprising to some people that this is already affecting jobs soooooo much more than the peak of the 2008/9 crisis? sure, YOU understood it before most people, but that assumes a level of general population economic and general data literacy that is unrealistic

let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Friday, 3 April 2020 15:11 (four years ago) link

It maybe shouldn't be a surprise, but it's a completely unprecedented jump, and we have no idea how it will play out over time.

Mario Meatwagon (Moodles), Friday, 3 April 2020 15:15 (four years ago) link

since a number with a (?) by it is less than convincing, here's the accompanying article:

The jobless rate today is almost certainly higher than at any point since the Great Depression. We think it’s around 13 percent and rising at a speed unmatched in American history.

The labor market is changing so fast that our official statistics — intended to measure changes over months and years rather than days or weeks — can’t really keep up. But a few simple calculations can help piece together a reasonable approximation.

Be warned, these numbers yield an imprecise estimate of today’s unemployment rate, and the truth could easily be quite a lot higher or lower. This is not an estimate of the official unemployment rate for March, which reports the state of the economy a few weeks ago when the labor market was in better shape, nor is it a forecast for the official rate in April.

The Labor Department reported on Thursday that around nine million people had filed for unemployment insurance over the past two weeks. (That number is not seasonally adjusted.) By contrast, in a healthy economy, fewer than half a million people would have done so. This suggests there are around 8.5 million more people on unemployment benefits today than there were two weeks ago.

There are important differences between who receives unemployment benefits and whom the official statistics measure as unemployed. (The former is based on eligibility for unemployment insurance, while the latter is based on who responds to government surveys that they are actively looking for work.) But it is likely that nearly all of these people will show up in the official statistics. After all, you qualify for unemployment benefits only if you’re actively looking for work.

In addition, independent contractors, including many gig economy workers, most likely lost their jobs but did not qualify for benefits. (The recent fiscal package passed by Congress will change this in coming weeks.) It is hard to be precise about how many people fall into this category, but a round, conservative guess might raise my estimate of the number of job losers to 10 million from 8.5 million.

State unemployment offices have also been overwhelmed, and it’s likely that some people have tried to claim benefits but are not yet counted officially because of processing delays. This might add a further million to our estimate, bringing it to 11 million.

The unemployment rate is calculated as the ratio of those who are unemployed to those in the labor force. The labor force is around 165 million, so if 11 million extra people have lost their jobs, the unemployment rate will rise from around 3.5 percent in February to around 10 percent.

But that’s not the whole story.

The latest initial claims data report the total number of claims only through March 28. Since then, it’s likely that an additional four million people have lost their jobs. We’re now up to an extra 15 million people unemployed, which would bump the unemployment rate for today up to around 12.5 percent.

So far, these calculations reflect only the rise in unemployment caused by job loss, but it’s likely that there has been a steep drop in hiring as well.

In the 2008 recession, the rate of separations — that’s the technical term for when workers and their jobs part ways, both voluntarily and involuntarily — actually fell. In that recession, the decrease in employment was entirely due to a very sharp decline in hiring.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that in a typical month, nearly six million workers are hired, a rate of 1.5 million per week. Again, it’s hard to know how much that has fallen, but if the hiring rate fell by a fifth over the past three weeks, that would mean that roughly one million fewer people found work than might otherwise be expected to.

At this point, our calculations show 16 million more people without work, for an unemployment rate of 13 percent.

These are obviously rough estimates. One important limitation is that these calculations do not account for the possibility that some number of people who lose their jobs will leave the labor force rather than continue to search for work. To the extent that happens, these numbers overstate the rise in unemployment.

Given the many uncertainties involved, perhaps it’s better to say that unemployment has risen by 10 million to 20 million, which means that the unemployment rate is probably between 10 percent and 15 percent.

That might sound like an unsatisfyingly unclear conclusion, but it’s a product of how poorly our official statistics track labor market changes from day to day, and how rapidly the economy is shutting down.

let me be your friend on the other end! (Karl Malone), Friday, 3 April 2020 15:16 (four years ago) link

it's also not true that this is entirely "by design." No one could predict exactly how many businesses would lay off how many workers and how quickly. The decision had to be made too quickly to even fully take that into account, and it would be impossible to model.

longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 3 April 2020 15:17 (four years ago) link

i guess i assumed the correlation between closing most businesses and rising unemployment would've been immediately perceptible - the 2008/9 crisis impacted numerous industries + sectors but it wasn't on the scale of "all restaurants, hotels, gyms, malls, theaters, retail stores, etc etc are now closed every white collar worker is now wfh."

Mordy, Friday, 3 April 2020 15:18 (four years ago) link


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