Rolling US Economy Into The Shitbin Thread

Also, I grew up working class, daughter of military and an immigrant. I don't like any of the systems I've been dealt. But I can adapt while and still know myself.

you can do ethical investing with your mutual funds etc. too

nobody needs to play the game of buying and selling individual equities unless they're willing to basically just have fun at the casino, as Yerac has suggested

SA, are you in the US or another country? We have like... no retirement income options that aren't somehow based in the market. You could go full-on with bonds, but successfully growing your nest egg is pretty much pinned to a return that beats the interest rate.

A large percentage of the population has no retirement account and is going to be drawing Social Security, or if they're lucky, union benefits, but if you're able to save for retirement that's about it. And once you're in the system with your 401k, it's not really a moral or logical jump to accept investment in stocks.

whoops, missed the 401k part toward the end of your paragraph

since the super-rich are almost by definition not ethical, if all ethical ppl chose not to invest the distribution of wealth would tilt even further in favour of the super-rich

For me -- someone who is perpetually thinking of doing some of my own investing, but only have a 401k, and feel that the system is messed up -- the only real answer long-term is structural change. I think there should be more public (read: government) ownership of essential sectors, a lot more regulation on many others, and harsh penalties on companies and individuals.

I'm not going to begrudge anyone who uses the current system while not doing so in a particularly asshole-ish way.

I'm also guilty of not paying attention to my own holdings where I have the ability to vote, and I should be doing that.

I guess it's a larger question of what people end up doing with disposable income when they come across it. That's a preference based on lifestyle/goals and upbringing and their own sense of security, I guess.

Like, I've always generally saved more than half, if not more of all the money I've made in traditional jobs since I was in high school.

on the other hand, people who grew up with parents that made poor financial decisions who end up talking about "rich dad, poor dad" are an entire subgenre of people I'd like to avoid

I have friends that make poor financial decisions, just waiting for someone to die so they can get whole with an inheritance.

I'd have more savings but I ended up rolling money into making sure my century-old house will last another century, which I think is a little bit of a contribution to the common good. At least I kept some construction contractors in business.

I asked my father (de facto financial advisor) about ethical investing in vanguard and he said as your advisor I’d have to say don’t do it. Then I put a bunch of money in Swell, an ethical mutual fund startup. After 2 years I think I lost a hundred bucks and then they closed.

Yes I am pretty much in the same sitch as mh. As a father, societal norms make us (adult males) feel like we need to be proactive with money and invest. Trade stocks and stuff. If we have enough money, invest in property. Once you get to the point of buying property, it feels to me like you are just taking advantage of people that can't afford to buy property. The people with money keep getting more, the people without stay that way. The more like a corporation you become. I sound like I'm 16 and just became aware of "THE MAN"! Again, I really hope this doesn't come off as judgmental, but I see a lot of you in the political threads championing Warren and/or Sanders, and then talking in here about playing in the stock game. Makes me feel like maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way fundamentally.

I am US, military brat, have 401ks littered across many jobs and all of them are in ethical investment portfolios when those are an option. I also have 529s for my kids in ethical investment portfolios. But the ethical ones don't make as much... This is just something that pops up in my mind from time to time - "hmm maybe I should be more proactive about investing... but is it socially responsible?" Just this time I decided to ask some people. I appreciate all your answers!

Also I have never been good at saving money (because I hate having it), but good at staying within my means. That probably explains a lot of it. Yerac's talk of saving more than half... whew that feels like light years beyond my capabilities. I guess if things stay okay I will have to face what to do with more money than I can spend once my kids get older. Will seek advice on here in a decade or so.

I use/plan on using the money earned from investing in shitty corporations to subsidize my already fairly frugal lifestyle so that I can continue to provide low-cost professional services to low-income people and do volunteer work.

Maybe someday I will be able to afford to buy property that will be/become affordable housing and studio/performance space for artists and culture workers.

xpost and solar power companies...ugh such bad luck with those. I really think it takes a certain type of person to have the knowledge to run something ethical well without being entirely corruptible by the system and money.

I guess I was a bit lucky in that my partner and I were fairly aggressive in our 20s and purchased a house when we probably should not have purchased a house or been given a mortgage. But we both wanted to feel secure in having housing within a really competitive rental market. And we dealt with it and had a period of time being uncomfortable with finances and too many roommates and it eventually worked out well. And I don't get sentimental about things so I have no problems selling places or items or not buying items that I like. I like nice things but I don't need to own them. So my overhead has always been really really low (like rarely taking cabs, spending about $40 a week on groceries in NYC, taking lunch to work, never having cable). And doing that consistently really freed me up to do the things I really like to do.

And generally, not every company that is public and tradable is evil. At some point it was just some small business that became popular/profitable and they wanted to raise money to expand.

I also think women and poc should become more financially savvy not less, because it's the one of the biggest things that does give them more independence and protection within the system (kind of like what sarahell is saying).

I have an Ellevest account! I haven't checked to see how well it is doing vs. my personally managed Schwab portfolio

Also I have never been good at saving money (because I hate having it)

I know a lot of people who are like this. A lot of cis-men, actually. They tend to be the most conflicted and angry about it, as well, whereas people I know who aren't cis-men tend to be more pragmatic and willing to adapt out of necessity or in light of a "bigger picture" in terms of how they hope to live their lives, plus those of their families.

I just constantly think of women having to marry or not being able to leave a bad/abusive relationship because they don't have money or it was withheld from them.

More than half a paycheck into savings is really a lot and I know not something that is realistic for most people but that is just me and my own goals. I can want to live a comfortable life while also wanting the same for everyone else. I don't have kids but I think there should be free education. I worked at large banks and I am fine with seeing them get all broken up. It's voting against my interests.

I just constantly think of women having to marry or not being able to leave a bad/abusive relationship because they don't have money or it was withheld from them.

exactly!

SA you should post (more?) on other threads btw. It's fun and terrible.

y'all as a once-struggling homeowner in my early 30's who once had roommates and as a cishet guy who has had money issues I am really feeling these posts, thank u for articulating

Yerac
Posted: March 17, 2020 at 6:46:14 PM
I also think women and poc should become more financially savvy not less, because it's the one of the biggest things that does give them more independence and protection within the system (kind of like what sarahell is saying).

I think that a lot of women/poc *are* more savvy with money than cis het white dudes, out of necessity. Social nets aren’t so great, etc. And not only that, but there’s nothing like straitened circumstances to teach good financial discipline, and, demographically speaking, women/poc often find themselves in situations where a little money must go a very long way.

yes

yeah, my mom was a chinese restaurant waitress her entire life (except one brief stint shipping out guns and I have no clue what that was about) so she was always very on top of me saving money and never owing money to anyone (credit cards, mortgages etc.) she dealt with all the money in our house.

when I see "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" quoted, I kinda just smh because "Rich Dad" was, in fact, my mother.

Not really sure if this is relevant, but I'm a cis white het dude who grew up in a family that never had much money. I don't feel conflicted about owning stocks in general. Maybe there are certain companies that might make me a bit uneasy (like, I don't know, gun manufacturers or something), but not enough to keep me from buying a broad index. I think most corporations are, on average, not evil, but maybe that's an unpopular view.

(except one brief stint shipping out guns and I have no clue what that was about)

Probably the greatest parenthetical aside on a mother ever.

i am an socialist and i do stocks, not a lot. 401k, IRA, and index funds. i don't believe in ethical investing. i think it's all unethical. but you can't not play this game, even if you live in a shack somewhere. imo. i don't buy that it would be more socially responsible to save all cash, or not save at all. the latter just puts you in an even more precarious position so you have to sell your labor more cheaply or be abused more. i am more and more frugal as i get older and constantly cranking up my savings rate.

I am a brown person married to a brown person raised by cis het WASP middle class parents and I went broke and (if not homeless) was forced to become involuntarily nomadic during the ‘08 crisis. EBT and heating assistance and no insurance and the unemployment office, all of it. Part of the reason I went broke is my own choices (grad school!), and part of it is broader economics, and part of it is that I actually didn’t understand money. Since ‘08 I’ve learned consistently about budgeting, discipline, and how to be responsible. But I’ll never be able to own stocks, and my ability to have a dog/family/two cars is very circumscribed by finances, and it basically always shocks me how cavalier people are with their money, who then describe themselves as “just making due.”

I like that post soda

xpost
Thanks for saying that, Yerac. Been lurking and rarely posting since 2004(!?), with frequent blackout periods and various usernames because I forget what they are after not logging in for a year. I have inconsistent internet habits.

A lot of these responses have me mulling some things about myself that have never occurred to me. I was a deadbeat broke-as-heck band dude for my 20's and first half of my 30's, and I figured the punk thing is just in my bones forever. I never thought I had money issues (as in, weird feelings towards money), but maybe I do? And maybe it's a white male guilt thing? I do feel horrible being at work and knowing I make more money than people older than me, or people that aren't white males. I feel bordering-on-physical pain if someone bagging my groceries is anywhere approaching my age. I guess I always felt like the cockroach in the corner and now I'm far from that and it feels gross. I'll ask some social distance real life friends if they feel the same way. No one I know in real life talks about money ever. Some friends are partners at big law firms. Some friends are middle school teachers. No one talks about it.

Soda - I am sorry to hear you had to go through that. I grew up middle class but my parents never really bought me much (no Nintendo/car/computer/etc), so maybe that had an effect on me not really wanting to buy things as an adult and being fine existing on very little income. I moved around every couple years and was latchkey so very independent too. I always felt willfully broke, and in a fucked-up twist, by electing to trade in my grad school or law school or legit-career-building years for touring the world in bands, I don't have any real debt, and never have - just never had any savings either. We briefly had some savings once but then immediately blew out all on moving cross-country and buying a house. I guess I'm still sorta broke but I own a house in a city I certainly don't feel broke at all!

Just was curious about the ethics of stock trading. Not that I have any extra money whatsoever.

Couple other thoughts (brain is being stoked by all these responses):

1/ Thought experiment: could it possibly be the most ethical path to spend all the money you don't need on... like... small businesses? Like, buying a synthesizer direct from a boutique company for $500 instead of investing $500 in APRN. Is that better for the world? More irresponsible for YOU, but is it better for the world?

2/ I always thought inheritances were weird. Why would I want or hope for or depend on money I get from my grandmother dying? It's reprehensible when people want that. So, if I shouldn't want that money, and I shouldn't need it, then what's the point of people hoarding all this money and then dying and giving it to people who don't need it? Isn't this something that happens all the time? It seems to be some ill-sighted goal that people have - to leave this "financial legacy" to their family or whatever. Why?

2a/ Maybe some people are just saving up to be able to take care of themselves financially at the end, and they don't use all of it. A lot of people are into the legacy thing though for sure.

A part of an answer to question 2 has to be a question: do you have kids?

This market was being inflated by buybacks because of Trump's dumbass self-importance. Full stop.

The crash was coming and it was the greatest shorting opportunity of a lifetime.

These multiples were ridiculous and needed a haircut. Easy money. You could have retired if you had a margin account 3 weeks ago. Easiest fucking money ever.

2) and 3) Inheritances are wack. I agree. The french system, napoleanic code, is even wacker. I like to troll my mom by telling her I am not leaving my brothers or nieces and nephews any money but am instead giving it all to Planned Parenthood specifically tagged to provide free abortions.

1) is the owner of the synthesizer store a really good person who has no intention of ever profiting from their business in excess and never planning on expanding and do they treat their employees well with a living wage and benefits? I just don't go that in depth because there are traps everywhere. And I am not marrying APRN stock and having to live with it forever and I don't want a synthesizer. Thought experiments on the internet booooooo.

It's fine to still have some punk ethos in you. I drove a bus and worked in a record store in college (and after) and at a radio station. I had to feed and let crash on my floor a lot of deadbeat broke-as-heck band dudes because they were always...broke. As they and I got older it became completely more and more tiresome. People are complicated, your responsibilities change, you don't have to be one thing in life forever.

xpost cheif kyiv, yeah there were some of us on this board a year and half ago talking about what would finally tank the propped up economy. all these people who were newly investing in the market and thinking it was so easy and were so supportive of Trump based on it, were going to have problems.

xpost
Sorry - not meaning to single you out re: APRN. Just used it because it had recently been discussed. And I did not or am not considering buying a $500 synth. Was trying to think of two innocuous examples of things.

Re: inheritances - if you have kids then you need life insurance. I don’t see why it should be a life goal of someone to leave $10k to a 40-year-old granddaughter.

It's fine. I know we were just talking about aprn. It used to be one of my examples of a failed IPO.

Re: savings though. Hopefully you and your partner have communicated future goals and plans to get to the point you want to be in the future and are willing to work together towards that. Investing in the stock market is not an end solution. Like, we know that at some point we might have to take care of 1-3 elderly people in some way (my dad is not included; he sucks) and are prepared for that. I also am not a fan of traditional office jobs so I like freedom away from that, but I am also willing to suck it up and do it if we need it. We are frugal on a daily basis but we don't think twice about paying for nice food and wine with people or indulging in a hobby. We don't have any mortgages or debt and I pretty much don't desire any objects at this point in my life. You have to figure out what is right for you.

Thanks. Yeah - we are essentially on the same page regarding savings. We just don’t have any right now. For the time being we are just trying to get by as my wife doesn’t want to work full time because of young children, and we pay for daycare for a three-year-old, etc. To be clear, by getting rid of extra money, I am talking about $100 in my “allowance” account for going out and getting drinks. If I notice it has piled up more than I need, I feel the urge to rid my account of it. For my real family accounts - that all gets used and/or saved responsibly. I just don’t like dealing with it. If we have credit card debt I am super into getting us out, but when things are running according to plan and we are putting money in savings, I never want to look at it or know about it.

The elderly parents thing is something down the line that definitely feels ominous. I recently became an only child and my dad already has a lot of health problems.

Have you paid off your mortgage or do you rent now? We lived in SF until a couple years ago (no way to buy a house there), so now we are just at the beginning of a 30 year mortgage. Some friends that bought younger have much less than that left.

The crash was coming and it was the greatest shorting opportunity of a lifetime.

These multiples were ridiculous and needed a haircut. Easy money. You could have retired if you had a margin account 3 weeks ago. Easiest fucking money ever.

I probably would've gotten wiped out betting on this in 2019 though

My wife's friend (from the same small town in China) gave me 'Rich Dad Poor Dad' when I first met her. I can't remember a book I've hated more. Many of the things he advises are criminal offenses, many of the others (if they work) are effectively a "fuck you" to other people. I was very pleased to see he'd declared bankruptcy a few years ago.

Oh, that's a book! I didn't quite understand what was going on with that.

Inheritances are wack.

If a granddaughter/other relative takes time off from paid employment to support a family member, that undercuts the relative's work history and lifetime earnings. Inheritances are an EXTREMELY INEFFICIENT of compensating for this and/or other sacrifices made on behalf of relatives. But they are better than nothing.

xpost We own two modest apartments in two locations outright (2 locations work related).

My spouse mostly lets me deal with all the money because I think he would get entirely too stressed out otherwise. It's labor. I don't mind it.

xpost when i consider the wack inheritances, I am thinking of large sums of money being funneled to children and evading taxes like through trusts that contain undervalued artwork/real estate/objects etc. And how it's difficult for people without that past in the US (and other countries) to accumulate that type of wealth over generations.

No one I know in real life talks about money ever. Some friends are partners at big law firms. Some friends are middle school teachers. No one talks about it.

It depends on social norms, but among some groups, the ability to not talk about money is an effect of privilege. I've read Q&A sites where someone has asked why, in her group of friends, the rich friend is the one who gets irritated when someone brings up they can't afford to do an activity, or complains about money issues, and it's just that -- they're uncomfortable because money talk reminds them they don't have that issue. It only really comes up when someone in the conversation feels like an outlier or is currently financially stressed.

SA, when you say "no savings", are you counting an emergency fund? There are a bunch of articles that can say it better than me, but basically deciding what amount it takes you to exist for a month, figuring out how many months you're going to account for to get back to normal, and keeping it somewhere fairly liquid. imo it's not really worth thinking about stocks or other discretionary investing until you've got a stable fallback. That took the anxiety about what to do with money away for me for a while -- just chuck it in a savings account until you have enough to subsist for a while, then circle back.

(xpost) That's what I mean by "inefficiency" (and I use "inefficiency" as a neutral term, rather than "fairness/unfairness."

I don't talk about money because it makes me anxious, I have to be goaded into even looking at my bank balance, as I'm scared it will all be gone. But sometimes friends suggest I do things with them which cost £50 or more and I have to tell them "I'm sorry, I just can't afford that" - seems that my large (rented, full of students I host) house and (meaningless) nice-sounding job title convince lots of people that I must be doing ok.