to form babby, or not to form babby

I'm not sure I believe that the genetic link means much tbh. I don't have children of my own, and I didn't understand parental love until my god daughter was born (she was adopted from birth). But now I feel like I really get it, and it has nothing to do with a genetic relationship, for her parents or for me

many many things i don't get about having kids, but near the top is naming them You Jr. or having their names all start with K or whatever

when i was little i knew a pair of fraternal twins, both boys, one of whom got the Jr. while the other was instantly branded second-best

There are many circumstantial reasons my being a parent is unlikely to ever happen, but a big one is that for most parents I know, considerations often seem to shrink (quite understandably) down to "fuck you we got ours", consciously or not. Also the notion that making more life is the highest achievement in / "point of" life drives me up the wall.

Doing things for your kid(s), instead of for yourself, does feel like the most important stuff you could ever do, though. I certainly understand how that might sound pretty dumb to non-parents.

having a kid is unethical, to the kid, for making it exist without consent*, i can give a pascal's-wager style argument to prove this but the margins of this post are too small to contain it

*unless you're religious or quasi-religious and have some kind of sophisticated understanding of the repayment of intergenerational existential debt, which, good luck with that

Doing things for your kid(s), instead of for yourself, does feel like the most important stuff you could ever do, though. I certainly understand how that might sound pretty dumb to non-parents.

hence "quite understandably" - I don't blame them. in general I treat parenthood like a particularly effective and widespread cult, one whose benefits can only be properly understood by its membership.

This month my daughter is turning 9, and due to various considerations and circumstances, she’s gonna get her first ever non-hand-me-down device (my old, loveworn iPad mini no longer holds a charge) and her first pet that’s hers (our cat passed last month, cancer) and these seem like such significant milestones to me, whereas in the absence of her, they would be quotidian events (a trip to the Apple Store, a trip to the humane shelter).

^^^ El Tomboto's posts

So are children for being special to you or for being their own person

Doing things for your kid(s), instead of for yourself, does feel like the most important stuff you could ever do, though. I certainly understand how that might sound pretty dumb to non-parents.

oh, this totally makes sense!

having a kid is unethical

ethics are a construct designed to improve life within a human society. when ethical constructs are pushed in the direction of absolutes, the results are always a reductio ad absurdum.

hence my asterisk

my parents are both good-hearted ppl but both deeply dysfunctional, terribly insecure and immature emotionally, and i've often though "wtf were they thinking, having kids". and i've often resented being born, as i suffer the terrible, endless psychic pain that follows having inherited these traits (not genetically, but by nurture/observation)

So are children for being special to you or for being their own person

― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Wednesday, February 12, 2020 9:56 PM (six seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

why are you acting like people acknowledging that their children add meaning to their lives is a gotcha

I love my kids unreservedly and have never regretted any aspect of parenthood, but I want to say that I respect and understand the reasons given here by people choosing not to have children. Specifically I would never feel threatened by someone making that choice, or think less of them either.

xp because ppl say it without acknowledging who pays for the meaning

biggest breakthrough we've had here is discovering, after 13 years, what topic can *finally* make silby act like a jerk

I’ve done it several times!!

silby's comments are fine

i kind of get what silby is saying though. Like the people who only do nice things for other people because it makes themselves feel good and it's a form of impression management.

I hate this part of asian culture because there is so much expectation and duty placed on the child to give back monetarily, in later caretaking and in success as an entitlement of their parents. It's so fucked up.

granted i have to quell the urge to nurture other people and place them first to my own detriment because that shit was ingrained in me and I hate it.

hadn't thought about the idea of 'impression management' before, makes sense

"But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."

Ecclesiastes, getting down and dirty with it. But then, the Essenes and early Christians were all dead set against procreation. Jesus seems to have thrown in with that idea, too, but less explicitly than Ecclesiastes. Sophocles was known to have said something along those lines, too. The Catholics and Mormons have other ideas, obviously. You pays yer nickel and makes yer choice.

Everyone deserves to have parent(s) who love them more than all others, of course it's fair.

This is beautiful logic and a beautiful sentiment

xp i don't know that it would be better (to anyone) for anyone not to have existed, but it is most definitely the case that in the long run one person does the procreating, and the procreated does the existing, which is kind of dicey risk-assumption-wise.

Don't want kids, but would love to be an uncle. Unfortunately both my sisters didn't want kids either, and they're in their mid to late 40s. They have almost no maternal instinct. Now at least. Like my cats are cute as fuck and they just aren't enamored by them in the least (not equating kids to cats, but pets cuteness is tied into parenting instinct).

Totally feeling Tom's post about imbuing meaning to otherwise meaningless events. I do sometimes think it'd be so cool to mold a human from scratch and see the world through fresh eyes. But then I'll spend a day with my bff and his 3 young boys and I'm like yeah no, fuuuuuuuuuuuck that.

lol

His kids LOVE me. Partially cause I'm only around once or twice a year, and partially because our other best friend is a very cold, detached person who hates kids (though he is nice enough to the boys and shows affection in certain ways eg buying them stuff). But partially cause I do enjoy being around kids in short bursts and have no qualms with being goofy af with them.

I'm very happy with how my life is going. I enjoy my freedom. Why would I want to change it completely at this point. Compromising my freedom to accommodate my girlfriend's wants and needs is plenty for me and my selfishness.

Btw very interesting to read everyone's perspectives here

Matthew K's comment that everyone deserves to have parents who love them more than all others is so right imo

And my parents esp my mom are fucking saints. Never an iota of pressure from them on myself or my sisters about "so when are we gonna get some grandchildren??". They're great parents all around and I have zero complaints about my childhood. Which makes it bizarre that none of the 3 of us "kids" want kids of our own!

My sister has a kid and will likely have more; it would be cool to be a real uncle and influence them and whatnot but they're country people through and through thanks to my brother in law. Oh well.

To j’s thought experiment in ethics, I’d like to see the science on what nonexistent people would be most likely to choose, if they existed and had a choice

I mean we’ve all had to exist, by giving her life I’ve done nothing to my daughter that hasn’t been done to every other living thing

I’m sure if we go down this rabbit hole enough we’ll come out as vomit

I basically share j.'s view

It truly is a gift of life. If one doesn't want it, there are 6 million ways to return it.

no see I don't want to die, that's the whole point

if I were never born I wouldn't have to be here, not wanting to die

except for when I do want to die, which is hardly preferable!

I worry about how the next generation in my family will fare

I think it’s insulting to be told that I’m either unethical or quasi-religious with no room for argument. Especially when the razor is “well, did your babby ask to be existed” - just call me a breeder and fuck off, I’ll try to not bother you any more than necessary.

the key point is not the choice to exist but the negative value of the unchosen irremediably unhappy life; you could feel relatively confident that that won't be YOUR kid's lot and probabilistically maybe it won't be but if it is it'll still be their unhappy life rather than (notwithstanding your sympathetic misery lol) yours

tom, i think there is a possibly non-religious alternative, but on the scale on which these things are measured it seems suspiciously religious in its optimism; basically, if you think it is open to human beings to learn, in an effective way, how to make themselves happy (a la traditional views about knowledge of 'human nature'), then you have some reason to think that the little bastard won't be that bad off and if they are they have themselves to blame rather than you. depends on the limits of 'effective' for the human capacity to lead a good life tho.

xp but that is the case for everyone forever

yes that is why the proof is so good

but as i said, margins too small, etc

if people had bought into this argument at any point, it would have been impossible to ride the new harry potter roller coaster at universal studios orlando, so it’s bullshit. More future people having potentially happier lives dilutes and maybe even compensates for the suffering of life on the whole. It’s not religious to say there are more people living better lives today than ever before in history.

meager consolation for the ones who aren't, though!

I really have to resist the urge to fall back on a descriptivist retort to this as well. If VHEMT has such a strong case, why aren’t they selling more t-shirts?

don't know about this conversation, but I think people do good things for other people for altruistic reasons

no one who has & is raising babby will tell you out loud that having babby was a decision that they regret, even though there are babby-formers who must certainly feel that way

Reddit has had several threads where these people speak up. They're certainly there, though the reasons for regret vary a lot

"my son joined an indie rock band"

no one 'has anything against' only children, C or D? maybe you won't either