to form babby, or not to form babby

i am sure we could set up some meetings with some choice private equity funds to get this done.

lol

haven't seen adoption mentioned here. my two best friends were adopted, as well as my god daughter. I don’t think people need for a child to be genetically theirs to experience parental love

my parents are such dicks. I once brought up possibly being more willing to adopt older kids than having a baby of my own and they were so against it because of whatever stigma they have in their minds of not raising your own pure baby from scratch.

I don’t think people need for a child to be genetically theirs to experience parental love

as for loving an adopted kid, the love part doesn't need any genetic component. but the genetic link is actually kind of useful in its own way, in that many personality traits tend to run in families, at least as much as physical genetic dispositions do, so the chances are that you will recognize how your child is developing more easily, whether it's seeing a bit of yourself or some trait of a parent, grandparent or sibling. it's not entirely necessary, but it does help ease the child into the family.

I'm not sure I believe that the genetic link means much tbh. I don't have children of my own, and I didn't understand parental love until my god daughter was born (she was adopted from birth). But now I feel like I really get it, and it has nothing to do with a genetic relationship, for her parents or for me

many many things i don't get about having kids, but near the top is naming them You Jr. or having their names all start with K or whatever

when i was little i knew a pair of fraternal twins, both boys, one of whom got the Jr. while the other was instantly branded second-best

There are many circumstantial reasons my being a parent is unlikely to ever happen, but a big one is that for most parents I know, considerations often seem to shrink (quite understandably) down to "fuck you we got ours", consciously or not. Also the notion that making more life is the highest achievement in / "point of" life drives me up the wall.

Doing things for your kid(s), instead of for yourself, does feel like the most important stuff you could ever do, though. I certainly understand how that might sound pretty dumb to non-parents.

having a kid is unethical, to the kid, for making it exist without consent*, i can give a pascal's-wager style argument to prove this but the margins of this post are too small to contain it

*unless you're religious or quasi-religious and have some kind of sophisticated understanding of the repayment of intergenerational existential debt, which, good luck with that

Doing things for your kid(s), instead of for yourself, does feel like the most important stuff you could ever do, though. I certainly understand how that might sound pretty dumb to non-parents.

hence "quite understandably" - I don't blame them. in general I treat parenthood like a particularly effective and widespread cult, one whose benefits can only be properly understood by its membership.

This month my daughter is turning 9, and due to various considerations and circumstances, she’s gonna get her first ever non-hand-me-down device (my old, loveworn iPad mini no longer holds a charge) and her first pet that’s hers (our cat passed last month, cancer) and these seem like such significant milestones to me, whereas in the absence of her, they would be quotidian events (a trip to the Apple Store, a trip to the humane shelter).

^^^ El Tomboto's posts

So are children for being special to you or for being their own person

Doing things for your kid(s), instead of for yourself, does feel like the most important stuff you could ever do, though. I certainly understand how that might sound pretty dumb to non-parents.

oh, this totally makes sense!

having a kid is unethical

ethics are a construct designed to improve life within a human society. when ethical constructs are pushed in the direction of absolutes, the results are always a reductio ad absurdum.

hence my asterisk

my parents are both good-hearted ppl but both deeply dysfunctional, terribly insecure and immature emotionally, and i've often though "wtf were they thinking, having kids". and i've often resented being born, as i suffer the terrible, endless psychic pain that follows having inherited these traits (not genetically, but by nurture/observation)

So are children for being special to you or for being their own person

― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Wednesday, February 12, 2020 9:56 PM (six seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

why are you acting like people acknowledging that their children add meaning to their lives is a gotcha

I love my kids unreservedly and have never regretted any aspect of parenthood, but I want to say that I respect and understand the reasons given here by people choosing not to have children. Specifically I would never feel threatened by someone making that choice, or think less of them either.

xp because ppl say it without acknowledging who pays for the meaning

biggest breakthrough we've had here is discovering, after 13 years, what topic can *finally* make silby act like a jerk

I’ve done it several times!!

silby's comments are fine

i kind of get what silby is saying though. Like the people who only do nice things for other people because it makes themselves feel good and it's a form of impression management.

I hate this part of asian culture because there is so much expectation and duty placed on the child to give back monetarily, in later caretaking and in success as an entitlement of their parents. It's so fucked up.

granted i have to quell the urge to nurture other people and place them first to my own detriment because that shit was ingrained in me and I hate it.

hadn't thought about the idea of 'impression management' before, makes sense

"But better off than both of them is the one who has never existed, who has never seen the evil activity that is done under the sun."

Ecclesiastes, getting down and dirty with it. But then, the Essenes and early Christians were all dead set against procreation. Jesus seems to have thrown in with that idea, too, but less explicitly than Ecclesiastes. Sophocles was known to have said something along those lines, too. The Catholics and Mormons have other ideas, obviously. You pays yer nickel and makes yer choice.

Everyone deserves to have parent(s) who love them more than all others, of course it's fair.

This is beautiful logic and a beautiful sentiment

xp i don't know that it would be better (to anyone) for anyone not to have existed, but it is most definitely the case that in the long run one person does the procreating, and the procreated does the existing, which is kind of dicey risk-assumption-wise.

Don't want kids, but would love to be an uncle. Unfortunately both my sisters didn't want kids either, and they're in their mid to late 40s. They have almost no maternal instinct. Now at least. Like my cats are cute as fuck and they just aren't enamored by them in the least (not equating kids to cats, but pets cuteness is tied into parenting instinct).

Totally feeling Tom's post about imbuing meaning to otherwise meaningless events. I do sometimes think it'd be so cool to mold a human from scratch and see the world through fresh eyes. But then I'll spend a day with my bff and his 3 young boys and I'm like yeah no, fuuuuuuuuuuuck that.

lol

His kids LOVE me. Partially cause I'm only around once or twice a year, and partially because our other best friend is a very cold, detached person who hates kids (though he is nice enough to the boys and shows affection in certain ways eg buying them stuff). But partially cause I do enjoy being around kids in short bursts and have no qualms with being goofy af with them.

I'm very happy with how my life is going. I enjoy my freedom. Why would I want to change it completely at this point. Compromising my freedom to accommodate my girlfriend's wants and needs is plenty for me and my selfishness.

Btw very interesting to read everyone's perspectives here

Matthew K's comment that everyone deserves to have parents who love them more than all others is so right imo

And my parents esp my mom are fucking saints. Never an iota of pressure from them on myself or my sisters about "so when are we gonna get some grandchildren??". They're great parents all around and I have zero complaints about my childhood. Which makes it bizarre that none of the 3 of us "kids" want kids of our own!

My sister has a kid and will likely have more; it would be cool to be a real uncle and influence them and whatnot but they're country people through and through thanks to my brother in law. Oh well.

To j’s thought experiment in ethics, I’d like to see the science on what nonexistent people would be most likely to choose, if they existed and had a choice

I mean we’ve all had to exist, by giving her life I’ve done nothing to my daughter that hasn’t been done to every other living thing

I’m sure if we go down this rabbit hole enough we’ll come out as vomit

I basically share j.'s view

It truly is a gift of life. If one doesn't want it, there are 6 million ways to return it.

no see I don't want to die, that's the whole point

if I were never born I wouldn't have to be here, not wanting to die

except for when I do want to die, which is hardly preferable!

I worry about how the next generation in my family will fare

I think it’s insulting to be told that I’m either unethical or quasi-religious with no room for argument. Especially when the razor is “well, did your babby ask to be existed” - just call me a breeder and fuck off, I’ll try to not bother you any more than necessary.

the key point is not the choice to exist but the negative value of the unchosen irremediably unhappy life; you could feel relatively confident that that won't be YOUR kid's lot and probabilistically maybe it won't be but if it is it'll still be their unhappy life rather than (notwithstanding your sympathetic misery lol) yours

tom, i think there is a possibly non-religious alternative, but on the scale on which these things are measured it seems suspiciously religious in its optimism; basically, if you think it is open to human beings to learn, in an effective way, how to make themselves happy (a la traditional views about knowledge of 'human nature'), then you have some reason to think that the little bastard won't be that bad off and if they are they have themselves to blame rather than you. depends on the limits of 'effective' for the human capacity to lead a good life tho.

xp but that is the case for everyone forever

yes that is why the proof is so good

but as i said, margins too small, etc

very high quality stuff from Casper

<3 Casper

I have a friend whose mom told him she would have aborted him if it had been legal at the time, which I don't think did wonders for his self-esteem, so, yeah.

From when I was very little, my mom was very vocal in her opinion that "having children is the stupidest thing you can do in your life." As I got older, the phrasing changed to "I hope you don't do anything stupid like get married and have kids and then finally to "I'm so glad you didn't waste your life by getting married and having children." (note: this was after I *was* married, but my marriage only lasted 14 months). Neither my brother or sister had children (or any kind of relationship where a family would be likely) so this branch of the family is closed permanently.

So yeah: that talk is great for your self-esteem and personality. Thanks mom: you saved me from a life of emotional attachment and self-sacrifice but I did eventually find a decent therapist because of it.

I don't believe there's a absolute right or wrong answer to the thread title's question. It used to be that whenever I was asked about having children, I'd trot out the usual answers about overpopulation, inequality, and declining resources but I realized that I was fronting. I don't want children because I don't want the emotional competition from bringing a needy stranger into my house. I have no concept on how to be reassuring to an adult and yet I'm expected to do that for a child?

For me, the major phenomenological change in becoming a parent was how fast my own concerns just... melted away.

Like, in an instant, I (myself) went from being my top priority to sixteenth or seventeenth on the list. The things I thought were important simply didn't seem all that important anymore. In a way this was refreshing. ymmv of course.

no one who has & is raising babby will tell you out loud that having babby was a decision that they regret, even though there are babby-formers who must certainly feel that way

Reddit has had several threads where these people speak up. They're certainly there, though the reasons for regret vary a lot

"my son joined an indie rock band"

no one 'has anything against' only children, C or D? maybe you won't either