Morrissey is a racist

So the Smiths music, even though there are problematic lyrics here and there, on the whole isn’t something I’d give over to being like Ukip anthems. Just not what the songs are.

i'm picking this hill and i'm going to die on it, like joan of arc

the funny (well, ok not haha funny) thing about Morrissey-as-martyr (per the Joan of Arc ref) is that it's always been core to his identity/persona, it's just that now he uses it as a shield for his racism.

as a person, he should be strongly criticized for his racism. and it's part of the story of the songs and helps put them in context. i just feel like there is a stigma attached to the music now that isn't deserved -- the work is separate

I don't disagree but where that line is of separating the work from the artist is different for everybody

It's almost as if racism only exists if it's in an American context.

― High profile Tom D (Tom D.), Wednesday, 12 February 2020 10:44 (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I was going to gently dispute that statement then the rest of the thread went all out to corroborate it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yes, I thought I was pushing my luck a bit with that one but...

again everyone here who knows the story and know what he's say understands his racism and that it exists, but generally no one pays attention to Morrissey nor is he reported on. i was talking to a friend recently abt morrissey bc she's sort of a fan and i mentioned his "thoughts" on race and immigration and she'd never heard a thing about it.

Despite the fact that he's been racist for virutally his entire career?

What’s American about the context?

Nm i think Tom & I agree

but generally no one pays attention to Morrissey nor is he reported on

it's weird how ppl keep missing this important point

she's not one to read UK papers or pitchfork tho, she lives a bit inside a fandom bubble w/r/t musicians, i think it's her refuge. and this story in particular, it's not something you're going to just passively hear about from casual mainstream news browsing. especially since it's not a story, it's just a constant fact w/him.

(xp) it's weird how Morrissey keeps missing this important point

The Smiths are great. You don’t need to wholly identify with the songs or the person singing them to enjoy the band. And the themes of loneliness and despair—especially his trademark twist of solipsism, which often comes with some self-aware/deprecating humor—are universal and that’s why he has so many Latino fans.

In the sense that the songs speak to everyone, they actually are working against Morrissey’s own perspective that national identity is what’s important (via Derridean analysis)

Hm, I love the Smiths, and have no problem with still listening to them, but they pretty obv don't speak to everyone. At least outside the UK, they were always a cult phenomenon. Anglophilia has at least something to do with some part of the cult of people who are listening to songs about dropping one's trousers to the Queen or hopes rising on the Grasmere. So I could see it making a difference to how one conceives of the emphasis on British identity in the lyrics.

Incidentally, I think my favourite defence of "Bengali" on the old alt.music.smiths Usenet group was that Morrissey's racism was just a subset of his overall misanthropy.

Some Bugbears Are Bigger Than Others

If you acknowledge that he's a heinous ass and like his music anyway, that's fine – otherwise I wouldn't be into metal. If you've gotten wind of his statements from across the pond but don't think they're that big a deal because there's a hierarchy of racisms and calling the Chinese 'a subspecies' is mid-tier at best because that's just how America rolls, I don't know what to say. (I'm not accusing anyone of doing this itt btw.)

I never met a Bengali so why I should I get offended on their behalf?

separate thing but i mean a lot of people were apparently somehow unaware that R. Kelly was extremely creepy until the past several years, even though that was something that was actually reported on here. people just don't pay attention to the news or the history of musicians' creepy behavior and dumb statements.

R. Kelly's perviness is all over his music. Morrissey's racism bursts through into his music on occasion, but it's not often the focus.

Ime, a lot of people had no idea what the word "Bengali" meant, even though there's a good chance they had met some around here.

I'm gonna get back on my hobby horse and say I noticed all of this just by listening to his lyrics immediately after he went solo

as a person, he should be strongly criticized for his racism. and it's part of the story of the songs and helps put them in context. i just feel like there is a stigma attached to the music now that isn't deserved -- the work is separate

Meanwhile, I can't listen to "Panic" anymore

I'm aware of one Morrissey superfan here in the U.S. (well, I think she recently moved to the UK) who ended up renouncing her fandom in the past few years, after a long period of being conflicted, etc. (this is based on social media and podcast stuff).

can we please talk about buster bloodvessel some more? he’s not racist is he?

Lip up fashy

lol

Adolf skitler

Sorry I mean skadolf skibbiditler

but generally no one pays attention to Morrissey nor is he reported on

In the U.K., their kids get to read it in their magazines, but we don't have those.

If you haven't read ska weekly then you should really pick it now

> people just don't pay attention to the news or the history of musicians' creepy behavior and dumb statements.

OTM, they don't even do it for far more famous figures. So depressing whenever I encounter this firsthand.

Manor House's finest sons Bad Manners have no known affiliations with far-right terror groups along the lines of UKIP etc, but I have a sneaking suspicion Mr Bloodvessel may have voted for Brexit.

let's go outside, guys.

Meanwhile, I can't listen to "Panic" anymore

Why? Isn't it about their reaction to a shitty Wham song being played after hearing about Chernobyl? Or is there a darker meaning?

Let's go outside!

https://youtu.be/gwZAYdHcDtU

xp. anti-greek racism

The darker meaning of "Panic" is that be hates music by black people

^^^ combine this with the "Hang the DJ" play-out for extra horror

My memory is that Morrissey dropped 'All reggae is vile' in an interview round about the time of Panic

good grief! What on earth is blatantly dissing club culture got to do with a fucking nuclear reactor meltdown in Ukraine?

going to regret posting this but while morrissey is obviously massively racist and divining racism in his lyrics is quite a fruitful pursuit in general, the context of mid 80s britain discotheques (in carlisle, dundee, humberside) is not one that would have been had much to do with black people or black music

it's pasty white men in cheap suits and bad cologne dancing to spandau ballet and then having a fight and a kebab on the way home

i think he might have even came out with the reggae is vile (i think he also called reggae racist) in the context of criticism that panic was racist

which proves he is a huge racist obviously

It was quoted upthread:

Yeah no I made this point earlier and I don’t think an American needs to know anything about British politics to think that

- calling Chinese people “a subspecies”
- repeatedly moaning about the UK “losing its culture”/ too many foreigns not speaking English on the street
- “Reggae, for example, is to me the most racist music in the entire world. It's an absolute total glorification of black supremacy... There is a line when defense of one's race becomes an attack on another race and, because of black history and oppression, we realise quite clearly that there has to be a very strong defence. But I think it becomes very extreme sometimes."
"But, ultimately, I don't have very cast iron opinions on black music other than black modern music which I detest. I detest Stevie Wonder. I think Diana Ross is awful. I hate all those records in the Top 40 - Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston. I think they're vile in the extreme. In essence this music doesn't say anything whatsoever."

Any of these or similar themes are not immediately understood by an American for what they are? That’s not niche. Not knowing about it, ok, but if you know and think it’s “inside baseball” idkYeah no I made this point earlier and I don’t think an American needs to know anything about British politics to think that

- calling Chinese people “a subspecies”
- repeatedly moaning about the UK “losing its culture”/ too many foreigns not speaking English on the street
- “Reggae, for example, is to me the most racist music in the entire world. It's an absolute total glorification of black supremacy... There is a line when defense of one's race becomes an attack on another race and, because of black history and oppression, we realise quite clearly that there has to be a very strong defence. But I think it becomes very extreme sometimes."
"But, ultimately, I don't have very cast iron opinions on black music other than black modern music which I detest. I detest Stevie Wonder. I think Diana Ross is awful. I hate all those records in the Top 40 - Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston. I think they're vile in the extreme. In essence this music doesn't say anything whatsoever."

Any of these or similar themes are not immediately understood by an American for what they are? That’s not niche. Not knowing about it, ok, but if you know and think it’s “inside baseball” idk

I do have work I'm supposed to do so I am going to try to not get sucked into this vortex but authorial intent only goes so far when the author spends several decades showing people all the ways in which he is a racist dickbag

the context of mid 80s britain discotheques (in carlisle, dundee, humberside) is not one that would have been had much to do with black people or black music

I can't speak for some of them places in that song (and maybe neither can that cunt Mozza!), but in his own native city of birth, Manchester and even indeed the shitty little northern town I grew up in across the Pennines from that region, they are both areas with huge afro-Caribbean and Asian communities. Not places where the old discotheques were just full of white people.

I had heard about so many of these incidents, but somehow I hadn't heard about the "reggae is racist" one yet. What an absolute shitbag.

Also, jeez Moz, weird to see what all the specific "Top 40" acts you name have in common.

acc.freaky trigger commenter billy smart (ilxor by another name? ppssibly!) "reggae is vile" is from 1985

(i.e. two years before "panic" and unprompted by any accusation, tho in a sense prompted by being asked which reggae act he liked)