Wherein We Elect Our Favourite Classical Compositions of… the 1910s

Roaratorio was also meant to be experienced as a series of tweet-length snippets iirc.

I like the John Zorn version of Lunaire (w/wind machine)

dull poptimist votes for sibelius 5

That's hardly the most poptimist pick here tbh (see: Elgar, Holst, Vaughan Williams – all British, incidentally).

Disappointed that there's no Lili Boulanger on the list... "D'un matin de printemps" and "Faust et Hélène" especially are among my favourite compositions of this decade.

Have you heard The Oceanides, Brad? As much as I worship the 5th, I feel like it's the purest distillation of Sibelian bliss in the 1910s.

oooh i haven’t

i guess you’re right, my brain skipped over the planets when i was reading the list

You're in for a treat. Check out Osmo Vänskä's performance with the Lahti Symphony Orchestra.

Re: Lili Boulanger, it's a lovely little piece, but not top 50 material imho. Don't worry, it'll stop being a sausage fest very soon.

Sibelius is the poptimist option because it's the most indie sounding!

That's quite the take. Care to expand?

Yeah idgi

(And Sibelius is tied for my all time favorite composer)

Joeks

the so-called nationalist composers are all eager for their respective nations to gain independence -- hence indie!

*runs away very fast*

*ba dum tss*

I usually think of Satie as classical for indie listeners but tbh I don't think I know the Nocturnes. (I voted for the Gymnopédies in their poll; I listen to indie. Don't @ me.)

my own joeks half-formed opinion (also previously aired on these borads) is that Sibelius is v off-putting because it is an uncanny-valley-type of sound that seems to be your regular orchestral music yet is not really, yet is not unlike enough to be something that is not that

I usually think of Satie as classical for indie listeners

My experience as well.

Sibelius is v off-putting because it is an uncanny-valley-type of sound

This is especially true of his late works (The Tempest and Tapiola in particular). Jean was more of a modernist than he let on.

Obligatory "can we not?"

This is especially true of his late works (The Tempest and Tapiola in particular). Jean was more of a modernist than he let on.

Yeah, I do feel a bit bad about how I feel about this, I ought to approach his stuff from a more tabula-rasa standpoint.

Come to think of it, I actually do like his string quartet! It being not orchestral could possibly be relevant.

(as could me having a soft spot for SQs in general obv)

I vaguely recall picking up a box set of his symphonies after reading a review that described him as the Nordic Debussy or some such, so that was an ideal way to step into his sound world. I discovered the 'lol Sibelius' serialist memes, his Nazi sympathies and his influence on conservative British composers much later, which no doubt helped.

Fwiw if you enjoy the String Quartet, you may want to hear contemporaneous (albeit orchestral) works such as Nightride and Sunrise, The Bard, The Dryad, Luonnotar and, of course, the 4th Symphony, but you probably know that one already.

Honest answer probably The Rite but assume that's going to win at a canter. My second choice would have been Bluebeard's Castle but given I can't vote for that I've gone for Szymanowski Violin Concerto. His v concertos are often called "perfumed" and I'm not sure any music fits the description better.

My wife and I saw Bluebeard performed at the ENO in a double bill with the Rite a few years ago. We were in seats next to Julian Barnes. Opera in London is good for celebrity sightings but it's the only time I've actually been seated next to one.

Uh
What Nazi sympathies???

That seems like a bizarre characterization at least according to what I have read

Check the 'Patriotic Manifestations' section:

https://fmq.fi/articles/the-responsibility-of-an-artist

'Nazi sympathies' is pushing it perhaps, although accepting the Goethe Medal from Hitler himself in 1935 is… nagl, to say the least, even when you take Finland's historical predicament into account.

That section explicitly says he was sceptical of the Nazis. It's true that he was right-wing, and the accepted accolades granted by any other states Germany (among many other states), but he never expressed any sort of support for Nazism, not even in his private diary.

(xpost)

I think it's fair to say that he was nonetheless quite complacent in this regard.

Yeah, but that's different from "Nazi sympathies". There were many Nazi sympathisers in Finland's cultural circles in the 1930s and 1940s, even among Sibelius's friends and family, but he remained unsympathetic of them.

Fair!

pom: Sib recommendations noted, thanks! I do not know e.g. the 4th; for some reason it's the 3rd I've heard the most, and that one is fine by me actually.

As far as recordings are concerned, Vänskä and the Lahti SO emphasize the Finnish 'glass of chilled water' aspect of his works, so that may help as well. British conductors in particular make a plodding, backward-looking mess of it and are to be avoided if you're not already sold on the mainstream Sibelius.

Well, mainstream in the UK, that is.

Vanska is overrated imo and at his most valuable in rarities

Hard disagree. Except for his Minnesota cycle, which I didn't care for at all.

I'd also rep for Segerstam with the Helsinki Philharmonic.

Yeah, well living in Minnesota is enough to ruin anybody.

The symphonies fared quite well in the 'golden age of stereo' and there are formidable recommendations for almost every piece from that era, yes the digital era brought about more of a focus on the pure cold water angle but the playing itself is often boring, the stereo era outings are often just so much more alive as instrumental playing.

You're right that way too many Sibelius cycles got recorded in the last couple of decades that are simply dull

OK let's do this

SYMPHONIES

1: With its Tchaikovskian/Brucknerian inheritance this is one that was pretty much nailed before CDs came along. Maazel/VPO (NOT later Maazel) for energy and verve, Colin Davis/Boston (NOT Later davis remakes) for all around excellence, Barbirolli/Halle (EMI version) for rough hewn bardic heft
2: Similarly, this is owned by Monteux/LSO, Kajanus (the very first recording from 78s), Barbirolli/RPO, and in the early CD era Jarvi/Gothenburg (NOT the later jarvi DG one) which was the first since Kajanus to understand that the first movement is always played too damn slow.
3: This one had to wait longer to be nailed, the only stereo era recordings I really rate at the highest level are Bernstein/NYPO and Davis/Boston. CD era, this is one that Vanska does very well and it was also knocked out of the park by Olli Mustonen and Thomas Zehetmair. Blomstedt/San Francisco is also very good.
4: Maazel/VPO is still the iciest and most formidable and best recorded (for my sonic tastes). Always avoid all digital-era Maazel. More recently, Segerstam (the one on Ondine not the one on Chandos) kills it here. Vanska's is too slow but interesting.
5: Barbirolli/Halle/EMI and Bernstein/NYPO are amazing here. Celibidache if you can find it. Digitally, Ole Schmidt/LSO is my favorite and this is a piece where the later Colin Davis (LSO Live label) is preferable to earlier in Boston where something is just wrong.
6: Berglund/Helsinki or Berglund/Bournemouth comes closest to getting this most sublime piece just right. Davis/Boston would be my top choice but he's too fast in one of the movements. Beecham (from 78s) is the most musically alive. Saraste's (RCA not Finlandia) was the disc that made me fall in love with Sibelius so special pride of place to that.
7: Maazel/VPO has all the same fierce qualities as the same team's 4th and never fails to slay me. This is the other symphony besides the 5th where elderly Colin Davis on LSO Live hit a transcendent peak. Mravinsky is a must-hear. My favorite of all now is a live radio capture from Charles Munch and the Boston SO but it's not fair to talk about bootlegs.

I'll do the rest of the orchestral works later today

Booming post, even though I strongly disagree with most of it. :)

Basically I prefer my Sibelius as muted, frosty, modernist and impersonal as possible.

Vanska’s your dude then! I was a little harsh on him tbf, his 3rd 5th and 6th are very good, but he errs too much on the side of flatness too often

I like Segerstam a lot.

There is no completely recommendable complete cycle, but Berglund/Helsinki is maybe the only one where none of the 7 gets botched

Sibelius was commited to a very personal and relentless brand of avant gardeism within the framework of tonality and disallowing himself from ever reaching for strange instrumentation. When he adds a bass clarinet, that’s the equivalent of Mahler rolling out an anvil.

Last year when I was sick and wasting away with a very severe flu I put on Symphony No. 4 and suddenly Sibelius clicked for me like never before; I felt physically in tune with this music, when I couldn't bear to listen to most other music. Later it was interesting to read that Sibelius composed it at a time when his health was precarious, having recently had operations to remove throat cancer, and fear of death was much on his mind.

not loving that you had a mega flu but loving that post

Luonnatar, the Dryad, the Lizard (Odlan) and parts of the Everyman (Jedermann) music share some of that gnawed vibe

Re: Lili Boulanger, it's a lovely little piece, but not top 50 material imho.

Assuming this is in reference to D'un matin de printemps and not to Faust et Helene? Although both were named.

7: Maazel/VPO has all the same fierce qualities as the same team's 4th and never fails to slay me. This is the other symphony besides the 5th where elderly Colin Davis on LSO Live hit a transcendent peak. Mravinsky is a must-hear. My favorite of all now is a live radio capture from Charles Munch and the Boston SO but it's not fair to talk about bootlegs.

I'll do the rest of the orchestral works later today

― valet doberman (Jon not Jon)

interested in hearing more about the munch/boston SO recording, mostly because it's your favourite.. (only recording i could find on youtube was munch conducting the RTF in helsinki)

Assuming this is in reference to D'un matin de printemps and not to Faust et Helene? Although both were named.

Correct.