Wherein We Elect Our Favourite Classical Compositions of… the 1910s

pierrot has the dumbest words

juggalo lunaire

Fucking Sprechgesang, how does it work?

flanders and swann are the true masters of speaky-singy

Daphnis et Chloé is where I was anticipating that I might finally give Ravel the vote. I've a soft spot for big juicy proto-filmscore-ness. But... Préludes, Les Noces and Les Heures persanes! And I recall favouring most of these Scriabin and Nielsen pieces over the earlier options. And Webern, Prokofiev, Janáček, Szymanowski and Enescu... Blimey.

What an absolutely crazy decade. Masterpiece and masterpiece and masterpiece. And yet I suspect it's going to be a landslide... And I voted for that as well.

I take it you won't be voting for Det uudslukkelige? C'mon, Nielsen was an incredible composer, he deserves some encouragement from his fellow Danes.

I love Carl Nielsen! My family is from Nr Lyndelse, specifically moved there because it's the birthplace of Nielsen. Still have a cottage house in the hills where he ran around as a boy, it's my favourite place on earth. I might vote for Fynsk Forår next decade. But I'm a singer, a Danish singer, so Carl Nielsen is this incredible songwriter who wrote all my favourite songs growing up.

Fynsk Forår seems to be considerably more popular in Denmark than beyond its borders. I quite like it, but I must admit I wouldn't put it in my Nielsen top 5. Cultural relativism strikes again?

You either get Funen or you don't :)

Christ almighty.

I'm not a huge Stravinsky stan but who else has had a run like his 1910-1913 one?

Probably gonna vote "Vers la flamme" tho.

Wait, was that a real question about sprechgesang? Would be happy to explain if needed. I love the OTT Expressionist psychodrama of the text (in English or French, anyway; don't speak German).

lol no Sund4r, I was just riffing on mark s's ICP theme. See:

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/miracles-fucking-magnets-how-do-they-work

Oh lol. I have never knowingly heard ICP.

Firebird suite

That said, Sund4r, I'd love to read your thoughts on Sprechgesang, so feel free to post them as you see fit. As you know, my technical knowledge of music is severely limited.

Concord Sonata, frankly. Stravinsky was ooga booga-ing for the bourgeoisie while Ives was creating a masterpiece of proto-post-modernity

Jesus Christ tho it’s like

The Debussy sonata AND the Janacek AND Prokofiev 1 AND Elgar Cello AND even El Amor Brujo which totally rules

This was like the zenith of fun classical music

More fun than the roaring twenties?

I suppose we'll find out soon enough.

i'd like to see an informed defence of sprechgesange which set out how you can tell the good performances from the bad

(it all sounds annoying to me but i am also unreconciled with most classical singing, in all its various evolving periods, so maybe i am just irredeemable as a listening appreciator -- ps i get that juggalot lunaire is meant to sound unhinged, and expressionist versions of unhinged get p overstatedly caligari p quickly)

first line reads snarkier than intended, that's actually what i'd like to read! esp.from sund4r!!

Probably gonna vote "Vers la flamme" tho.

An excellent choice. Which version do you prefer? (I'm partial to Roger Woodward.)

i'd like to see an informed defence of sprechgesange which set out how you can tell the good performances from the bad

― mark s

i can't give you an informed defense, but if you want to hear bad sprechgesang listen to frank zappa, for instance "the dangerous kitchen"

or even more than that, "star wars won't work"

when the venn diagram of things i very much don't want to hear forms a perfect circle

Mark do you like Wozzeck

ooga booga-ing for the bourgeoisie

Thanks for the display name!

im persuadable (i'm listenable to the boulez version right now)

yes thats what i meant to write

Try Dohnányi's – Eberhard Wächter is a much better Sprechgesänger than Walter Berry imo.

(This may go some way towards responding to your initial challenge.)

ok :)

(tho i'd still also like an actual real informed musician-composer-teacher to pin down their sense of the necessary precepts) (to give me something to disagree with as i'm processing it lol)

BTW, I can only assume that Prokofiev's 2nd Piano Concerto is going to be counted as a 1920s piece based on the reconstruction. Because that absolutely is one of the top 10 pieces of music ever written.

Indeed (to the former – I'm not a huge Prokofiev stan beyond the 1st Violin Concerto and the War Sonatas).

That's fine, so long as it has a seat at the table.

Don't worry, it will. And I'm still curious to hear your Vers la flamme recording pick. :)

Might be the piano he's using, but Horowitz's is right up there:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0nrg7Lqfak

Good stuff.

(At work. Will post at lunch!)

I think this is my favourite decade of classical music but there's quite a lot I haven't heard of here! Got a lot of love for the Bartok string quartet, Three Places in New England, the Debussy preludes and images, the Planets, the Firebird (got a totally charming recording on pedal steel guitar), the Rite of Spring, both the Vaughan Williams, and Strauss' absent Alpine Symphony (if just for the opening, which I used to play over & over).

I'd like to write in a vote for Charles Villiers Stanford's The Blue Bird from his 1910 8 part songs, which cuts me deep for personal reasons and feels so full of loss. Of these I'll vote for Debussy's first book of preludes

I'll seek out that Stanford piece (I'm not familiar with his oeuvre at all tbh).

As ever, don't hesitate to prop up favourite recordings should you have any. I very much admire Jean-Efflam Bavouzet's way with Debussy and the Préludes in particular. And the immortal Michelangeli…

Voted Book I of the Préludes, where I think Pollini gets it more right* than most (*right as in, "how I think each one should go"). Hope someone throws a bone to Webern's 6 Pieces though - the version on the complete works box conducted by Boulez is controlled hysteria.

You can refer to a score here: https://imslp.org/wiki/Special:ImagefromIndex/03959/pnba

NB: I am not a singer.

So this may be basic stuff but, as per Schoenberg's instructions, aiui, the vocalist is expected to follow the notated rhythms strictly. The notated pitches are to be struck but let go immediately and the vocalist follows the line in sliding towards the next note, which strikes me (a non-singer) as pretty tricky. With a mix of conjunct and very disjunct (plenty of sevenths and ninths) contours in the line, and the wide, detailed dynamic range, you have quite a substantial expressive repertoire to work from, but it is one that is also carefully notated and can certainly be followed (and evaluated). Compositionally, the way he could use recognizable sets of intervals in each movement can provide unity. Is that a helpful start? Any vocalists want to jump in?

no clue for this decade, gonna have to listen/relisten to everything

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnMv6-XTROY

2xp He did elaborate later that the pitches should be 'good' but not 'strictly adhered to'.

xp ^^^^ a bourgeoisie properly ooga booga'ed

Hard disagree. Except for his Minnesota cycle, which I didn't care for at all.

I'd also rep for Segerstam with the Helsinki Philharmonic.

Yeah, well living in Minnesota is enough to ruin anybody.

The symphonies fared quite well in the 'golden age of stereo' and there are formidable recommendations for almost every piece from that era, yes the digital era brought about more of a focus on the pure cold water angle but the playing itself is often boring, the stereo era outings are often just so much more alive as instrumental playing.

You're right that way too many Sibelius cycles got recorded in the last couple of decades that are simply dull

OK let's do this

SYMPHONIES

1: With its Tchaikovskian/Brucknerian inheritance this is one that was pretty much nailed before CDs came along. Maazel/VPO (NOT later Maazel) for energy and verve, Colin Davis/Boston (NOT Later davis remakes) for all around excellence, Barbirolli/Halle (EMI version) for rough hewn bardic heft
2: Similarly, this is owned by Monteux/LSO, Kajanus (the very first recording from 78s), Barbirolli/RPO, and in the early CD era Jarvi/Gothenburg (NOT the later jarvi DG one) which was the first since Kajanus to understand that the first movement is always played too damn slow.
3: This one had to wait longer to be nailed, the only stereo era recordings I really rate at the highest level are Bernstein/NYPO and Davis/Boston. CD era, this is one that Vanska does very well and it was also knocked out of the park by Olli Mustonen and Thomas Zehetmair. Blomstedt/San Francisco is also very good.
4: Maazel/VPO is still the iciest and most formidable and best recorded (for my sonic tastes). Always avoid all digital-era Maazel. More recently, Segerstam (the one on Ondine not the one on Chandos) kills it here. Vanska's is too slow but interesting.
5: Barbirolli/Halle/EMI and Bernstein/NYPO are amazing here. Celibidache if you can find it. Digitally, Ole Schmidt/LSO is my favorite and this is a piece where the later Colin Davis (LSO Live label) is preferable to earlier in Boston where something is just wrong.
6: Berglund/Helsinki or Berglund/Bournemouth comes closest to getting this most sublime piece just right. Davis/Boston would be my top choice but he's too fast in one of the movements. Beecham (from 78s) is the most musically alive. Saraste's (RCA not Finlandia) was the disc that made me fall in love with Sibelius so special pride of place to that.
7: Maazel/VPO has all the same fierce qualities as the same team's 4th and never fails to slay me. This is the other symphony besides the 5th where elderly Colin Davis on LSO Live hit a transcendent peak. Mravinsky is a must-hear. My favorite of all now is a live radio capture from Charles Munch and the Boston SO but it's not fair to talk about bootlegs.

I'll do the rest of the orchestral works later today

Booming post, even though I strongly disagree with most of it. :)

Basically I prefer my Sibelius as muted, frosty, modernist and impersonal as possible.

Vanska’s your dude then! I was a little harsh on him tbf, his 3rd 5th and 6th are very good, but he errs too much on the side of flatness too often

I like Segerstam a lot.

There is no completely recommendable complete cycle, but Berglund/Helsinki is maybe the only one where none of the 7 gets botched

Sibelius was commited to a very personal and relentless brand of avant gardeism within the framework of tonality and disallowing himself from ever reaching for strange instrumentation. When he adds a bass clarinet, that’s the equivalent of Mahler rolling out an anvil.

Last year when I was sick and wasting away with a very severe flu I put on Symphony No. 4 and suddenly Sibelius clicked for me like never before; I felt physically in tune with this music, when I couldn't bear to listen to most other music. Later it was interesting to read that Sibelius composed it at a time when his health was precarious, having recently had operations to remove throat cancer, and fear of death was much on his mind.

not loving that you had a mega flu but loving that post

Luonnatar, the Dryad, the Lizard (Odlan) and parts of the Everyman (Jedermann) music share some of that gnawed vibe

Re: Lili Boulanger, it's a lovely little piece, but not top 50 material imho.

Assuming this is in reference to D'un matin de printemps and not to Faust et Helene? Although both were named.

7: Maazel/VPO has all the same fierce qualities as the same team's 4th and never fails to slay me. This is the other symphony besides the 5th where elderly Colin Davis on LSO Live hit a transcendent peak. Mravinsky is a must-hear. My favorite of all now is a live radio capture from Charles Munch and the Boston SO but it's not fair to talk about bootlegs.

I'll do the rest of the orchestral works later today

― valet doberman (Jon not Jon)

interested in hearing more about the munch/boston SO recording, mostly because it's your favourite.. (only recording i could find on youtube was munch conducting the RTF in helsinki)

Assuming this is in reference to D'un matin de printemps and not to Faust et Helene? Although both were named.

Correct.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Xpost

I mean it’s my favorite right now because I’m just so bowled over by its singular vision but it wouldn’t really be a “responsible” choice for an “all time favorite” Sibelius 7th - it’s really really slow, almost certainly the slowest ever, like in the 28 minute range; I didn’t think it’d work at all but it does, like crazy. Drama and tension never lets up. It can’t be what Sibelius wanted but it kills.

wellll i was kind of fishing for a ysi since it's not commercially available :)

Btw, for the 1920s poll, pls don't forget Heitor Villa-Lobos - Douze études pour guitare. Probably won't defeat the best of Bartok/Webern/Schoenberg but the 11th is still probably my favourite thing to play.

Debussy Sonata for Flute, Viola, and Harp is peak music

Don't worry Sund4r, I've got you covered. I've got reservations aplenty about Villa-Lobos's output but those Etudes are all-time.

Xpost quite possibly my favorite piece of chamber music

So many cool prototypical and influential ensembles from this general time period

That Debussy trio
The “Pierrot ensemble”
Bartok two pianos and percussion

OTM

Yeah, that's 100% otm.

I'm really struggling here. Might just go with The Oceanides in the end but Vers la flamme is equally tempting (they all are).

Fuck it, I'm going with Mahler's 9th, which was probably the most important music ever to me as a 19 year-old.

the first movement is about as good as music gets

Yep. And when Jascha Horenstein is conducting it, the whole thing.

i'll give this one to scriabin sonata 10

Deserved imo. Which reminds me:

My Tenth Sonata is a sonata of insects. Insects are born from the sun ... they are the kisses of the sun.

Ok Alex.

you know he's right

I never heard back from mark! Did the description of sprechgesang give you something to process and disagree with?

Almost ran out of time again. Somewhat arbitrary late vote for the Ravel (D&C) I had in mind before I even saw the list. Aaargh.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Poor moonstruck Pierrot.

Hard to argue with the winner, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Art_works_that_caused_riots

I respect Stravinsky far more than I enjoy his music but it's impossible to argue with the Sacre.

Onwards, fellow travellers:

Wherein We Elect Our Favourite Classical Compositions of… the 1920s

While I feel the best piece won this poll, I'm now listening to the Ralph Vaughan Williams compositions for the first time and these two here are unbelievably sublime. The Lark Ascending and Fantasia are just magical pieces of music. Possibly a bit on the tail end of fashion given their romantic roots, but good lord what sheer beauty.

yeah they're wonderful, just an absurdly rich decade

Indeed they are, and Arvo Pärt's now ubiquitous compositional style seems unthinkable without the Fantasia in particular. It's tempting to think of Stravinsky (and Prokofiev) as the torchbearers of 'primitivism' in the 1910s, but Vaughan Williams's musical language in these pieces also taps into an imagined 'archaic' consciousness, one grounded in endless melody instead of polyrhythm and not all that dissimilar Erik Satie's own self-consciously naïve experiments in simplicity.

By the way, Andrew Davis's studio recording of the Fantasia with the BBC Symphony Orchestra is stellar, but I think I like this live performance even better:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpwqZSp_CyM

*dissimilar from

all these last posts otm

pom could you suggest a relatively recent piece which exemplifies “Arvo Pärt's now ubiquitous compositional style” and wherein i might hear this RVW influence ?

I hear echoes of both in Dobrinka Tabakova's music.

Btw Pärt's Silouans Song strikes me as a good example of what he (consciously?) owes to RVW.

The Lark Ascending and Fantasia are just magical pieces of music.

Indeed they are. Thanks for linking to that Davis' recording Pom!