do players improve anymore or do they just work (in a system, or for a manager) or not

So my short initial one in the morning answer is it very much depends on the means and aspirations of the club and the coaching and development staff they employ. And it stands to reason that the less money you've got coming in the more incentive there is to make something of the lads you do get hold of, at the least until you can sell them on.

have they improved nor are they just doing different things

if you see the nebulous difference

Traore is the most obvious I think. By the end of last season a lot of us thought he was never going to make the grade - physical attributes obviously awesome but couldn't cross, made the wrong decision more often than not, didn't contribute enough to the team. I don't think Nuno's adjusted the tactic to suit him, I think they've taught him to slow down, to get his head up and look before he crosses and passes, to know when to accelerate and when not. It's still entirely possible that this is as much improvement as he'll ever make but I think it's undeniable that he's a better player now than he was when he joined us.

ok, clear and good example of tactical/experience improvement there

has he gotten and better at crossing, or is he just getting it drilled into him to do it more often?

when was the last time a player made epl level then improved something in this manner, as opposed to the tweaking of decisions/role instanced above

I think he's got a lot better with his technique as far as crossing's concerned. I accept he may be an exception that proves the rule - a very expensive punt for a newly promoted team with a small squad. The incentive was very strong that we needed to improve him. Coady has clearly improved under Nuno too but might be much more of a tactical thing on reflection.

Like I said last night, this feels a very Prem-centric thread idea tho.

well i do you worse again, its rly based on fuckall more than the usual pondering on how fullbacks can be so bad at their jobs and how difficult it could be to even drill them into better habits

tinged with the oft-repeated criticism of AWB being limited in attack as if it were a stone fact unchangeable at 22 that he's stuck that way, when once pon a time at 22 it was taken for granted that you had lots to learn and the space and time to do it, maybe?

Jordan Ayew is the first player I thought of who appears to have radically improved in the last season under Woy but I haven't watched Palace closely enough to know if that's a system tweak or just better coaching or attitude. Or a combination of all three.

i think jordan henderson has improved since back when lfc were trying to offload him to fulham in exchange for clint dempsey. even under rodgers he became vital in the final suarez season.

post klopp he firstly improved by playing in a role where the p limited things he could do were fine for the way lfc played but latterly he definitely has expanded the number of things he can do, range of forward passing, reading of game, positional discipline, defensive angles, to name a few.( seen no evidence of this when playing for england however so not sure if that goes to supporting darragh's theory or not)

also thought alex ox-ch. made a significant jump towards the end of the 2018-19 season until his bad injury, not returned to that level as yet.

ok

i think we can accept a case for shall we call em mental/process learning and development

unless ob you are saying AOC improved technically as opposed to just his decisions, consistency, conditioning (all of which id agreed with btw) i still think that there's very little evidence of players improving in any of this aspects in games once they make their top level bow (bar nvs assertion that traore is now crossing better)

for instance, jhendo is on a soccer am skills segment from years back as a youth and he has all the silks, so while his game has developed in terms of using his arsenal of ability in-game, i dont think we can say he has worked on the technical aspects themselves in that same timeframe

ok well finishing is technical and raheem sterling has improved his finishing imo, okay he gets a lot of tap ins at city which is a function of playing in that team but he also scores chances that there was no possibility he'd even attempt when he was at lfc let alone execute.

the obvious one is ronaldo who famously worked on his technique relentlessly, or are you talking post-ronaldo era?

ideally yeah post ronaldo

sterling is a good shout

I kinda think it's too restrictive to exclude any kind of learning/positioning from development, like you want to isolate psychomotor skills as a unique set?

not exclude, yes differentiate

Nah I get it but tomatoes tomahtos, like you said this is mainly just Yr own cry into the void about a peculiarity of Spurs's recent history

also a pondering of the freezing of these abilities in different circumstances maybe

Andy Robertson seems an obvious example - clearly the LFC stattos saw something in his form while he was being slowly relegated at Hull, but throughout his first season mostly playing back-up to Moreno, there was nothing to suggest he was capable of eg the cross to Salah vs Man City this season.

But living in Hull Robertson and Maguire were both recognised and adored at the time, hard to distinguish personal development from playing in a better team at a better standard

hmm i think its not tho.

then ofc you have the phenomenon of the career clogger who pulls out a piece of world-class skill/delivery/striking once or twice in a career against spurs and is that a related thing

like, and im rambling now but are there, for instance, players at epl clubs who can genuinely not trap a ball or shoot straight under any circumstances but have physical, positional, game intelligence, whatever abilities that make up for that, or if the worst epl player on a technical basis was dropped into a five a side game would he have silks beyond what we could dream of etc etc

i think about the performance of technique in contact sports a lot btw

as a fantasy sports player robertson and maguire were more profitable at Hull ha

Henderson is one of those players who has improved through hard work and focus but appears to have near boundless reserves of energy and the discipline and footballing intelligence to play pretty much any role he's asked to. Most players lack that last bit.

Milner is another in that vein but he never possessed the motor that Henderson has.

Dembele was 24 or so before being recast as a central midfielder and improved in the role throughout his 20s. The entire system was built around his physical attributes though and Poch never managed to adequately replace him.

Recasting big, fast forwards as central midfielders appears to work pretty well in general, give or take the odd Alan Smith.

aw poor alan smith, always felt he was undervalued in any of his many roles tbh

It was a result of Fergie only managing to buy one competent central midfielder in the last decade of his tenure.

rooney was a rb fyi

tanganga was an epl level defender in any position at the moment of conception i dunno if this is relevant