END TO END BERNERS: The Official Bernie Sanders 2020 Crew thread

this discussion has reminded me of my own most important maxim, which is that I sometimes regret posting, but I absolutely never regret not posting

politics ain't beanbag

brad OTM

good morning

i'm sorry for losing my cool and making a shitty comment upthread. i stepped way out of line and i'm super embarrassed. going to take a break from politics threads for a while.

like a few queer ppl were just steamrolled by y’all making the same points over and over

they made their point. they had opportunity to respond however they wish. I don't think anyone here expressed approval of Joe Rogan's transphobia in any way. The conversation moved on from there. I'm not sure what you are mad about or how you think other ilxors acted badly by engaging in the thread. But, it's how you feel and feelings are going to be felt, so what can you do?

yeah i was needlessly flip on this thread. easy to do on the internet but that's no excuse.

Aimless, I respect you, but your response ain't helpful

I'll go back and look harder for any posts that disrespected the opinions expressed by any other ilxor, but disagreement is not disrespect, even if that disagreement is repeated by quite a few individuals.

A few hours after the last time a queer poster had expressed their disappointment that the Sanders campaign was hailing an endorsement from a transphobe, the thread was full of straight guys congratulating each other that Bernie was never triangulating and had such a good moral compass. I'm not sure I'd say it's disrespect, but it's basically telling queer people that cavorting with people who hate them isn't even worth calling a compromise. They matter that little.

Having gone back over the entire discussion, crut's comment, which he regretted and retracted five minutes later, is the only disrespectful one I have seen during yesterday's conversation re: Rogan's endorsement. I am willing to believe I missed something dismissive or belittling, and if I did I'd appreciate someone pointing it out.

ftr, I read each of Eliza's many remarks carefully as well as those answering her points. afaics, her main concern rested on the very existence of transphobic voters and through their great numbers having the effect of reinforcing transphobic policies. As many here said, having those transphobic voters vote for an openly transphobia-approving candidate seems far worse to me than their voting for Sanders.

While I can easily understand her fear and disgust at having to live in a society where transphobic opinions can be freely held and disseminated, I have no idea how to remedy that problem other than to actively support trans-friendly speech and social policies. I do not see how any part of yesterday's discussion undermined that goal, and in one post Eliza directly disclaimed that ilxors were engaged in the kind of rhetoric around the Rogan endorsement that she was most angered by.

iow, I'm not sure Brad's anger about "steamrolling" is justified by the actual discussion. But anyone who wants to can go back and read it all over once more and judge for themselves.

cavorting?

I've gone from Warren to Sanders as well recently, and seeing how the polls are shaping up I suspect many people in the US have done the same recently, but at this point the endorsement, and the reaction to it, on here and on twitter, is really making me feel shitty about it. The inability to really, truly, honestly listen to the complaints. It just takes a few beats, and then it's back to praising the guy for being so good. It's turned into a morality play, and that is poison! The problem isn't that Sanders is bad, the problem is that the coalition, or at least the loud voices in the coalition, are too homogenous, and too sure that they are on the side of good, and that's just extremely worrying to everyone else!

Because, yeah, what happens when M4A, or whatever watered down version of M4A is being proposed, is on the line because Joe Manchin refuses to have the federal government covering costs related to transitioning? Who listens? And people are being told 'don't worry, Sanders is too good a person to do that' when what they want is a seat at the table and knowing that they will be listened to. Believe in power, not morals.

dear fred bitch i'm gay as hell so you can stfu about what happened after brad and phil got upset and about people you don't know anything about.

he reads a lot of newspapers

Joe Manchin being a cretin sounds like a Joe Manchin problem, not a Sanders or Rogan problem.

god i'm so sorry, i need to correct myself and say eliza

Utterly bizarre to connect "conservative Democrats are going to be obstacles" to the Rogan mess.

If the majority of queer posters say they're offended, it's best to step away.

Cool thred

Unfortunately a straight dane said the same as well, so now there's green light for a pile on yet again. I'm sorry.

are you from denmark?

I’ve never heard that I assumed he was American bc he only ever posts about the minutiae of American political campaigns with an air of authority.

that makes sense, it would be weird for him to be from denmark

Frederik, Crown Prince of Denmark, Count of Monpezat, RE, SKmd (Frederik André Henrik Christian; born 26 May 1968) is the heir apparent to the throne of Denmark. Frederik is the elder son of Queen Margrethe II and the late Henrik, Prince Consort.

How the fuck have you all decided this is a proper time for this derail?

this is that fredrik?!?!? your highness i'm so mortified

I've gone from Warren to Sanders as well recently

That's cool, are you voting in the primary? Which state?

THREAD... Joe Rogan. I think it’s fine to accept the endorsement even as I disagree w highlighting him in an ad. Rogan has built much of his career by appealing to racism, sexism, trans and homo phobias among others. This contradicts Sanders appeals for solidarity rooted in the

— Keeanga-Yamahtta T. (@KeeangaYamahtta) January 25, 2020

i think denmark has caucuses?

that's a good thread. I liked this too:

it would be dope to vote for a candidate who wasn't endorsed by someone who thinks discussing whether the races have different shaped heads isn't worth debating for, say, several hours

— Andrew Ti (@ANDREWTI) January 24, 2020

oof, did they really put the endorsement in an ad? I hadn't heard that and is extremely disappointing

so many of my canadian friends talk about the democratic primary this way, mostly as bernie supporters but one who loves mayor pete and one who loves kamala, and it is crazy imo because we do not get a vote

xp to myself: yes. (I hadn't looked at the actual tweet)

just the twitter video I think, that was linked upthread. but the bernie campaign did make a video out of rogan saying he'd vote for him. xp

If the majority of queer posters say they're offended, it's best to step away.

That is a good general rule. How well it applies here is not entirely obvious to me, if only because I am not entirely up to speed on who is or is not queer, or exactly where the locus of their offense is directed, but I'll observe it henceforward. Consider me backed away.

THREAD... Joe Rogan. I think it’s fine to accept the endorsement even as I disagree w highlighting him in an ad. Rogan has built much of his career by appealing to racism, sexism, trans and homo phobias among others. This contradicts Sanders appeals for solidarity rooted in the

— Keeanga-Yamahtta T. (@KeeangaYamahtta) January 25, 2020

SMH at yesterday's flood of Not All Joe Rogan Listeners after Brad, Eliza et al shared legit disgust at Bernie touting the endorsement. I hope the campaign makes some effort to counter Rogan's doofish hatefulness in the coming days. Wouldn't feel as gross to me if they had just @ed Rogan with "glad to have you on board in our fight for trans, gay and women's rights! Equality for all!!" but I'm cishet male and my identity is never under attack by choads of his ilk and maybe there's no ok way to acknowledge the endorsement?

Interestingly Nina Turner retweeted Bernie's original Rogan video/tweet, but also both negative (including the tweet above) and positive comments about it

to echo something an ex-ilxor says, i'm offended all the time. so fucking what?

cool, glad you're on our side

i would vote for elizabeth warren but she won’t stop DMing me and asking for feet pics. i’ve expressed my boundaries multiple times and she has continued to message me. i’m not trying to kinkshame anyone but i don’t think it’s appropriate to ask a trans woman for “trap feet.”

— anemone (@femalehysteria) January 13, 2020

lol

Via that tweet:

In desperation, even veteran socialists in the Trump era have become ideologically disoriented and susceptible to the temptations of political opportunism. Most serious among the errors of the socialist movement has been the subtle degradation of the prospects of revolution in North America.

True. I had hardly noticed how the prospects of revolution in North America had degraded since the last time I looked.

rogan gets a pass but this? come on dude pic.twitter.com/hbpvgWN5j4

— Garbage Ape 🗑 🦧 (@GarbageApe) January 26, 2020

I'm very close (closer than I might like to be) in my own gut reaction to the "It's an endorsement of my guy from an influential figure, let Bernie have this win, c'mon!" people, but have been trying not to get in anyone's face about it or pretend I have any semblance of a clue about what matters or doesn't matter anymore in the grand scheme of U.S. elections.

With that said... This comment, which passed unremarked upthread, seems symptomatic:

Rogan is seemingly one of the dumbest, most credulous people on Earth, he will believe anything the person in front of him says with authority

To say, then: Don't take that guy too seriously, he doesn't mean it — He never means it — He has no deeply held convictions or intellectual positions... Does this not authorize and naturalize anti-trans prejudice, as a kind of factory default setting, as something inaccessible to reasoned discourse, so deep is the level at which it operates in the body (or, amounting to the same thing, the unconscious mind) of even the most "mushy brained" "meathead" among us?

ps Election cycles always bring out the worst in people (which is probably why the American media decided we should have a 30 month long one every 4 years, lol) and I don't think y'all are bad people. But it's disheartening to hear anyone who considers themself an ally to marginalized people and an outspoken political progressive make excuses for any form of prejudice which basically amount to: Hey, what are you gonna do, that's just Joe being Joe!

Not to get all Chomsky on 9/13 here but explaining something is not the same as excusing it.

I didn’t say “don’t take him seriously,” I said Rogan is an ignorant cretin. (And not to anything specifically discussed by another poster.) Bigots aren’t born, they’re created - in Rogan’s case created by his age and position (let’s remember how even most avowed white liberals his age felt about LGBTQ issues 20-30 years ago...) but by his credulousness and stupidity.

He hasn’t had a trans person sit across from him and tell him their story - he’s had Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro and brain-damaged fighters and he will eat up and believe every word they say, because he lacks the capacity to think critically about anything.

Rogan is, quite obviously, not alone in this.

It’s also fairly well-established that breaking down reflexive bigotry is possible, and a key way to do that is with confronting the bigot with the reality and humanity of ‘the other’ in person rather than just simple ostracization.

He hasn’t had a trans person sit across from him and tell him their story

If/when ContraPoints goes on, that should be interesting (and I hope she does). Rogan has been having increasingly left wing guests on so I don't think its particularly unlikely, and thats invaluable - Particularly because he stands at the doorway to the alt-right pipeline (a subject for another thread but actually maybe not - questions about who we want to reach and how we want to reach them. who is too far gone and who isn't)

as to the malleability theres almost no chance he would have endorsed Bernie without Cornel West pushing him in that direction