Guys whose careers date to the seventies can afford to be purer and "authentic."
I miss more women commenting on these threads.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 25 January 2020 03:39 (four years ago) link
I get the entire idea of having to broaden your appeal and become quote-unquote presidential when running a campaign, but... run on who you are! your stances! what you've done!
Warren has a good resume based on her national career, just emphasize that above all else. I think she could flip any criticism on lack of experience compared to Sanders with the pitch that she's the candidate who looked to him as a mentor. Should pitch with that, expand on it, and then criticize based on where she's done something different
I feel like she panicked in 2016 and decided a stronger extant democratic party was a better goal than representing the things she was credible on
― babu frik fan account (mh), Saturday, 25 January 2020 03:41 (four years ago) link
I mean, just tell the story about how you got fucked on the CFPD because the system doesn't want real consumer protection!
she can absolutely be pure and authentic, counting her arrival on the national scene as day one
― babu frik fan account (mh), Saturday, 25 January 2020 03:43 (four years ago) link
There has to be something to the team stuff definitelyl, Gray and Turner certainly message disciplined and I'm not sure Warren's team has that. The idea Bernie somehow magically doesn't have a team is obviously wrong! He has a good team
― anvil, Saturday, 25 January 2020 03:48 (four years ago) link
Dudes tend to forget that the rockist argument about authenticity is available to them because the terrain on which their picks fought was a whiter, male-r terrain. I like Sanders because of what he says NOW, not because He Was Always Right, a slightly obtuse argument based on the homogeneity of his state. Yet I recognize Warren's base of support is thinner than his.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 25 January 2020 03:53 (four years ago) link
i'm a woman and i didn't doubt warren's authenticity until about the past few months, when she started waffling. i wasn't a supporter but had more respect for her. i have no doubt she'd be doing better had she stayed consistent, not a question of being able to afford it. that is the basis of the statement about the quality of her team/advisors. not just having one, but having one that gives her bad advice, apparently.
― forensic plumber (harbl), Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:00 (four years ago) link
there is certainly something to the idea that had sanders been a woman saying these things for the past 40 years, he would not be where he is. but what do we do about that
― forensic plumber (harbl), Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:03 (four years ago) link
Has there been a change in her team at some point in the last few months?
― anvil, Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:07 (four years ago) link
again, I find "authenticity" in a candidate, as I would in a pop star, dubious at best.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:09 (four years ago) link
i am not sure. i must also confess i am not the best judge of time because i've been very busy and this primary has dragged on forever, so when i say a few months it may have been a year. xpost
― forensic plumber (harbl), Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:10 (four years ago) link
interesting parallel with Corbyn where he lost his perception not of "authenticity" exactly but 'believability', as he allowed himself to get manoeuvred into the proceduralist/managerialist position and the perception that Labour had any kind of resolve evaporated
― anvil, Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:14 (four years ago) link
What makes you think Sanders is any less indebted to advisers -- and so what if he were?
I can only watch how Bernie acts and listen to what he says and if there is evidence of calculation in that, then the calculations have changed very little in the past five years and apparently those advisors are advising against his pivoting or muddling the core message. They aren't trying to remake him from a shouty old man into something else, or scripting quips for him to artfully (or not) drop into debates or interviews.
All the beloved 'image management' apparatus that I associate with political consultants seem to be missing from Bernie's campaign. I doubt he is paying any consulting firm large amounts of money to tell him to be himself, do and say what feels right, and stick to what has gotten him this far. Because why would he need that advice?
If he has advisors to tell him where to concentrate his GOTV organizing efforts to get the most results, or researching who he should be contacting locally who know the lay of the land and can run a good volunteer effort, then that ain't the kind of consulting I object to; it's just good solid political horse sense to pursue that information and act on it.
If he is triangulating on issues, it's so damn subtle I can't tell he's doing it. In which case, I don't care .
― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:16 (four years ago) link
Let me answer this question, I think, once and all.
I'm a gay Latino in his forties. To have been an Elizabeth Warren in the 1970s and 1980s required a series of compromises and comeuppances: remaining a Republican twenty years after Nixon, marrying poorly, believing in middle class shibboleths. It's harder to be a woman and think your way out of corners. How fortunate to have been a moderately radical man coming of age in Vermont -- he didn't deal with the institutional sexism of Ivy League institutions; then, years later, surrounded by the men whom you think are your peers, the condescension and outright hostility of Treasury secretaries in the administration of the president who signed the Lily Ledbetter Act.
I don't agree with the Chuck Todd-blessed conventional wisdom. She hasn't "stumbled" explaining M4A or whatever. From the late summer to November she rose to frontrunner because the specificity of her policies were recognizable and detailed enough to scare the shit out of Wall Street like Sanders' broad gestures didn't, and, to be fair, because American media can't take a Democratic Socialist seriously. Elizabeth Warren is a Capitalist to Her Bones because like FDR that's what she knows; as a woman, that's the system under which she, to quote Hart Crane, made her meek adjustments. She's a traitor to her class, like FDR, hence the incomprehension of the Larry Summers-Tim Geithner class struck dumb by their inability to buy her off.
Anyway. That's my own meek defense in a Bernie thread.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:24 (four years ago) link
It comes down to a simple axiom: it's so easy for straight white men to be pure. So fucking easy.
Yet Sanders is my #2 without hesitation.
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:25 (four years ago) link
God knows anti-Semitism was unknown in Sanders's youth and adulthood.
― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:35 (four years ago) link
Why aren't more of them?? xp
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:39 (four years ago) link
I have to note one of your otherwise sapient remarks on the comparative travails of Sanders and Warren:
he didn't deal with the institutional sexism of Ivy League institutions
First, he went to the University of Chicago, but secondly, the Ivy League in 1960, when he entered college, was just as notoriously and stubbornly committed to limiting the admission of jewish students as they were to limiting women. This does not even touch on the even more profound racism of the Ivy League schools at that time.
But however much it helps to understand the genesis of a person's methods of coping with the world, it does not change those methods. If one may commend Warren for rising this far against a stiffer headwind perhaps than Bernie had to march against, our understanding does not alter their respective strengths or weaknesses as they stand before us today. I trust both of them in terms of the policy direction they wish to take the nation, and in terms of their strong commitment if they enter office. atm, I trust Bernie more to hew to a campaign path that will have more success with voters, not because he's a better person, but because he is running a better campaign.
― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:44 (four years ago) link
This is why, to some extent at least, we also have to look at the campaign teams as much as the candidates, many of who have the same discipline as Bernie but perhaps not the same background
― anvil, Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:49 (four years ago) link
Also to clarify, I don't have any issue with the fact Warren used to be a Republican. We should celebrate that people moved left, not chastise them for it
― anvil, Saturday, 25 January 2020 04:56 (four years ago) link
it’s one of my favorite things about her
― A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Chooglin (will), Saturday, 25 January 2020 05:01 (four years ago) link
Its actually the same reason I think its right for Bernie to go on Rogan, right for Bernie to go on Fox, the more people that move from right to left the better and there are some great vehicles for doing that out there
― anvil, Saturday, 25 January 2020 05:09 (four years ago) link
See also, Peter Daou's journey!
― anvil, Saturday, 25 January 2020 05:12 (four years ago) link
great (can't quite bring myself to say 'booming') post
― mookieproof, Saturday, 25 January 2020 05:21 (four years ago) link
lot of good discussion tonight itt
― Dan S, Saturday, 25 January 2020 05:33 (four years ago) link
So easy to advocate socialist principles in America! Who knew?
― buzza, Saturday, 25 January 2020 06:09 (four years ago) link
scores and scores of white dudes killing it with Bernie's playbook since the 70s, too numerous to mention
― buzza, Saturday, 25 January 2020 06:12 (four years ago) link
lmao
"president tom hayden"
About 1,400 results (0.37 seconds)
― buzza, Saturday, 25 January 2020 06:17 (four years ago) link
skinny fat dudes with the iq of a dog who are 6 beers deep for bernie— losing it, (@prophethusband) January 24, 2020
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 25 January 2020 10:06 (four years ago) link
yesterday’s conversation sucked ass and has made me suspicious of many of y’all bc it feels like a few queer ppl were just steamrolled by y’all making the same points over and over. i’m still mad. i’m going to be even more mad when this inevitably happens again, so i’m not talking to any politician stans about politics for the rest of the decade. enjoy your thread 4 straights (plus morbs)
― american bradass (BradNelson), Saturday, 25 January 2020 11:05 (four years ago) link
My initial reaction when this Rogan thing blew up in this thread yesterday was to express sympathy to the viewpoints of Brad, Alfred, Eliza, but defend Bernie (“he can’t return endorsements/votes so what does it matter, btw fuck Rogan”). I am glad I didn’t right away, because seeing the bullshit they have had to put up with is a bummer.
I mean these posters initially expressed the mildest disappointment/anger that politics in 2020 might require their compromise with Rogan and his fans, who in my intentionally limited experience, are flat earth stoner MMA meatheads with pretensions of grandeur, only to be basically told that their feelings were invalid and that they should basically shut up and Feel the Bern. I can totally see why one or more of them wouldn’t want to engage with ILX political threads any longer but I hope that isn’t the case because I get a lot from reading them.
I have reached the point where Bernie is my preferred candidate, but this shit doesn’t make me feel very good about it.
― We're jumping on the road with @Nickelback this summer! (PBKR), Saturday, 25 January 2020 12:11 (four years ago) link
“he can’t return endorsements
Actually he could!, he retracted Cenk Uygur's endorsement and there was debate over whether he should have done (although Cenk asked him to retract)
― anvil, Saturday, 25 January 2020 12:17 (four years ago) link
Actually that was the other way around, Bernie endorsed Cenk and took some heat over it, and Cenk asked him to retract
― anvil, Saturday, 25 January 2020 12:18 (four years ago) link
this discussion has reminded me of my own most important maxim, which is that I sometimes regret posting, but I absolutely never regret not posting
― bold caucasian eroticism (Simon H.), Saturday, 25 January 2020 12:42 (four years ago) link
politics ain't beanbag
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Saturday, 25 January 2020 13:04 (four years ago) link
brad OTM
― Doctor Casino, Saturday, 25 January 2020 13:19 (four years ago) link
good morning
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 25 January 2020 13:30 (four years ago) link
i'm sorry for losing my cool and making a shitty comment upthread. i stepped way out of line and i'm super embarrassed. going to take a break from politics threads for a while.
― uncrut gems (crüt), Saturday, 25 January 2020 15:45 (four years ago) link
like a few queer ppl were just steamrolled by y’all making the same points over and over
they made their point. they had opportunity to respond however they wish. I don't think anyone here expressed approval of Joe Rogan's transphobia in any way. The conversation moved on from there. I'm not sure what you are mad about or how you think other ilxors acted badly by engaging in the thread. But, it's how you feel and feelings are going to be felt, so what can you do?
― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 25 January 2020 17:34 (four years ago) link
yeah i was needlessly flip on this thread. easy to do on the internet but that's no excuse.
― A-B-C. A-Always, B-Be, C-Chooglin (will), Saturday, 25 January 2020 18:02 (four years ago) link
Aimless, I respect you, but your response ain't helpful
― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 25 January 2020 18:41 (four years ago) link
I'll go back and look harder for any posts that disrespected the opinions expressed by any other ilxor, but disagreement is not disrespect, even if that disagreement is repeated by quite a few individuals.
― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 25 January 2020 18:47 (four years ago) link
A few hours after the last time a queer poster had expressed their disappointment that the Sanders campaign was hailing an endorsement from a transphobe, the thread was full of straight guys congratulating each other that Bernie was never triangulating and had such a good moral compass. I'm not sure I'd say it's disrespect, but it's basically telling queer people that cavorting with people who hate them isn't even worth calling a compromise. They matter that little.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 25 January 2020 19:26 (four years ago) link
Having gone back over the entire discussion, crut's comment, which he regretted and retracted five minutes later, is the only disrespectful one I have seen during yesterday's conversation re: Rogan's endorsement. I am willing to believe I missed something dismissive or belittling, and if I did I'd appreciate someone pointing it out.
ftr, I read each of Eliza's many remarks carefully as well as those answering her points. afaics, her main concern rested on the very existence of transphobic voters and through their great numbers having the effect of reinforcing transphobic policies. As many here said, having those transphobic voters vote for an openly transphobia-approving candidate seems far worse to me than their voting for Sanders.
While I can easily understand her fear and disgust at having to live in a society where transphobic opinions can be freely held and disseminated, I have no idea how to remedy that problem other than to actively support trans-friendly speech and social policies. I do not see how any part of yesterday's discussion undermined that goal, and in one post Eliza directly disclaimed that ilxors were engaged in the kind of rhetoric around the Rogan endorsement that she was most angered by.
iow, I'm not sure Brad's anger about "steamrolling" is justified by the actual discussion. But anyone who wants to can go back and read it all over once more and judge for themselves.
― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 25 January 2020 19:30 (four years ago) link
cavorting?
― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 25 January 2020 19:31 (four years ago) link
I've gone from Warren to Sanders as well recently, and seeing how the polls are shaping up I suspect many people in the US have done the same recently, but at this point the endorsement, and the reaction to it, on here and on twitter, is really making me feel shitty about it. The inability to really, truly, honestly listen to the complaints. It just takes a few beats, and then it's back to praising the guy for being so good. It's turned into a morality play, and that is poison! The problem isn't that Sanders is bad, the problem is that the coalition, or at least the loud voices in the coalition, are too homogenous, and too sure that they are on the side of good, and that's just extremely worrying to everyone else!
Because, yeah, what happens when M4A, or whatever watered down version of M4A is being proposed, is on the line because Joe Manchin refuses to have the federal government covering costs related to transitioning? Who listens? And people are being told 'don't worry, Sanders is too good a person to do that' when what they want is a seat at the table and knowing that they will be listened to. Believe in power, not morals.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 25 January 2020 19:35 (four years ago) link
dear fred bitch i'm gay as hell so you can stfu about what happened after brad and phil got upset and about people you don't know anything about.
― ingredience (map), Saturday, 25 January 2020 19:38 (four years ago) link
he reads a lot of newspapers
― j., Saturday, 25 January 2020 19:41 (four years ago) link
Joe Manchin being a cretin sounds like a Joe Manchin problem, not a Sanders or Rogan problem.
― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Saturday, 25 January 2020 19:42 (four years ago) link
god i'm so sorry, i need to correct myself and say eliza
― ingredience (map), Saturday, 25 January 2020 19:43 (four years ago) link
Utterly bizarre to connect "conservative Democrats are going to be obstacles" to the Rogan mess.
― Greta Van Show Feets BB (milo z), Saturday, 25 January 2020 19:43 (four years ago) link