The Battle of Mia Farrow's Creepy Exes: FRANK SINATRA vs. WOODY ALLEN

sinatra is the greater artist imo

they both seem like pretty bad ppl by any reasonable standards, though the worst accusation against allen is worse than anything i've heard about sinatra

plus, sinatra gallantly offered to have goons break woody allen's knees. did woody allen ever gallantly threaten violence against frank? no? case closed

both great, hard to pick really

sinatra is the greater artist imo

agreed

yeah agreed

no dispute there

I mean 'New York, New York' is a pretty good song but feel like he should maybe drop a few more tracks before we start proclaiming his genius.

Agree with J.D.

And Chrysler never made a special "Woody Allen edition" car.

https://jalopnik.com/for-4-000-this-1982-chrysler-imperial-is-a-blue-eyed-1721975988

write-in vote for Andre Previn

write-in vote for Dory Previn

did Woody Allen ever conduct something like this:

https://img.discogs.com/s4n4IUISW95x2aL48NZyshJoaI8=/fit-in/600x607/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2540730-1412667536-4105.jpeg.jpg

Andre Previn remains one of the most baffling conductors I've sung for; when doing a simple 4/4 beat, his three was an arrhythmic flourish that had nothing to do with one, two, or four.

some kind of embedded Viennese Waltz perhaps?

It looked more like he was turning the crank on an invisible miniature Model T

truly the jim furyk of conductors

is Woody's music better than Frank's movies?

tbf I've never heard a note of Woody's music outside of what's heard in Wild Man Blues (which is fine). I really only rate the Manchurian Candidate out of Frank's movies.

credit sequence of the Tender Trap and one or two of the musical numbers in Anchors Away notwithstanding

Songs for swingin' lovers > any woody Allen movie

Deconstructing Harry > all Frank after 1966

also Woody's are p much the only good movies Mia made besides Rosemary's Baby and A Wedding

Deconstructing Harry > all Frank after 1966

low bar

OK, maybe not "Bein' Green"

my way >>>>>>>>>>>>>> deconstructing harry

def not

that song sucks tbh

you are a heartless dybbuk

oic i meant "Bein' Green"

"My Way" is tripe

someone told me Sinatra secretly hated "My Way" but i can't confirm

Sinatra's best work either rings with insouciance or wallows in vulnerability. By the time of "My Way" all you're hearing is ego and anger curdled into a kind of self-righteousness.

"Bein' Green" is fine cuz its playful

Annie Hall means a lot more to me than anything I know by Sinatra.

I have no connection whatever to work by either of these guys. Or Mia Farrow.

I can't stand any "My Way" except Sid's.

I can't fathom indifference or hostility to a Sinatra ballad tbh.

Woah back up, we're dismissing *all* Frank after 66? The Jobim album was 67 (his last Grammy nod if it means owt).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQYaLNF8l8M

Hm yeah amend that cutoff date, the Jobim album is fantastic

Watertown and to a lesser extent She Shot Me Down rule

I find almost all of Sinatra's output that was arranged by Nelson Riddle to be irritatingly facile.

how are you defining "facile" in this context?

To dislike Nelson Riddle's arrangements is to dislike Sinatra, period, unless you wanna make an argument for Gordon Jenkins or something.

Don Costa enjoying a posthumous sigh of relief.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJxS_1LzUKw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7XncEILEGc

I can't stand any "My Way" except Sid's.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, January 10, 2020 8:42 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I can't fathom indifference or hostility to a Sinatra ballad tbh.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, January 10, 2020 8:50 PM (one hour ago)

Francis Albert Sinatra & Antonio Carlos Jobim is indeed a fantastic album. Somebody was recently talking about the followup that was recorded but never released because one of the two didn't like it. There is also something in Ruy Castro's book about how the Bossa Nova movement grew out of a Sinatra fan club, actually a Farney-Sinatra fan club, Dick Farney being a Brazilian singer who claimed some connection to Sinatra, iirc.

To dislike Nelson Riddle's arrangements is to dislike Sinatra

Yup. Last time I looked this was still allowed under current law. While I can easily see the intent of how these recordings were put together, I am not moved by his phrasing nor by the instrumentation. Any actual emotion is smothered to death by the simulation of emotion.

nb: to answer your query, that last sentence is what I meant by "facile".

that opinion should not be allowed under current law

Jesus wept, but he wasn't listening to Frank Sinatra being 'vulnerable' when he did so.

Somebody was recently talking about the followup that was recorded but never released because one of the two didn't like it.

Think that was me--don't remember which thread tho. Sinatra had issues with his own performances on three tracks and had the album--which had already been pressed and sent out on 8-track--pulled in favor of Watertown. The remaining 7 songs snuck out a few years later as half of Sinatra & Company. Many years later all 20 Jobim tracks were released on a Complete Sessions CD with great liner notes by Stan Cronyn, which detail the whole affair.

the simulation of emotion = lots of art

it's funny (but not surprising) how this comes down to "who do you believe the worst about?" for some ppl

I mean what else would it be, comparing artistic outputs?
Woody would still win

that's what it is and not necessarily

not sure about the Sinatra bondage/rape allegations (maybe I just haven't gotten to those chapters yet) but there's been more than a couple instances in this Kaplan bio where he lays out compelling (but still inconclusive - hey, it's the mafia!) evidence that Sinatra had his mob buddies do serious violence to people (including murder)

I mean what else would it be, comparing artistic outputs?
Yes!

Woody would still win

idk about that

They are both very very VERY gross.

even in retrospect and with all of the negative history I think Allen had a greater artistic output

Murder (in general) is more logically understandable *to me* than father-daughter incest. Idk about the rest but I feel bad for Mia on account of her very bad taste in men.

xxp I don't know about that, there's A LOT more stuff out there on Sinatra, inconclusive it may be
Woody has at least 20 movies that are good. a couple are great. Sinatra is a shitty actor and honestly A Rainy Day in New York was fun to watch. also Sinatra is dead and Woody is alive, kind of a flex there 😏

what it comes down to for me is i never need to see annie hall or manhattan ever again and i am forever yoked to sings for only the lonely, one of the richest, deepest records ever made by fuckin anybody

can't argue with that

I’m not interested in the artistic output of Woody Allen at ALL; Sinatra, a little.

When you combine w the above logic, my vote makes sense. Again though it’s worth saying over and over in every post that they are both suuuuuuuuper fucking gross.

Manhattan sucks
I haven't seen Annie Hall in a long time
I'd still vote for Woody based solely on his 2010s output

Sinatra raped minors AND murdered people/had people murdered (allegedly), he's worse than Woody just on that
I need to go watch a movie or play guitar or something

Everyone loses in a contest like this. They are both repulsive.

I heard No One Cares the day before NYE, my first exposure in at least ten years, and the way it articulates despair with emphatic arrangements and inhuman singing is as close to anticipating Joy Division as I can expect.

I still love Allen's early comedies, like Interiors.

If we’re voting “less gross” that’s a very tough decision. Voted Sinatra EVEN THOUGH HE IS VERY GROSS because Woody Allen is grosser, on the whole. More insidious. What a couple of gross exes!!

― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera),

Sinatra the shrewder, more resourceful and original artist too

I really loved Annie Hall. I remember having a contentious discussion about it at the dinner table with my older brother, and also remember a friend at the time being disgusted that it won the academy award over Star Wars

manchurian candidate is better than any of allen's movies

what it comes down to for me is i never need to see annie hall or manhattan ever again and i am forever yoked to sings for only the lonely, one of the richest, deepest records ever made by fuckin anybody

― american bradass (BradNelson), Thursday, January 16, 2020 12:28 AM (thirty-five minutes ago)

^^^^

I can still watch any number of Woody Allen films, like I watch many old Transformers and G.I. Joe: The Real American Hero episodes

Manchurian Candidate was good but was not as good as Annie Hall, Manhattan, Crimes and Misdemeanors, Zelig or Hannah and Her Sisters for me

Frank's acting > Woody's jazz stylings

Woody was p much my comedic hero from age 14-24. I've never denied he's a creep though.

I used to enjoy a few woody films but couldn’t make it through Manhattan, it seemed like just real bullshit. Annie Hall is classic obv. But Frank is a dude I’ll always have time for. Ever since I was a kid I liked the guy, but it helps that I was exposed to his lonely guy just thinkin bout things albums early on and not his bombastic coasting legend LPs from the ‘70s on (though as far as the ‘70s go his Jobim collabs are vv nice). Good actor too.

The last Woody film I liked was Deconstructing Harry since it was a pretty bleak piece of self loathing, vs being mildly self deprecating.

I still love Allen's early comedies, like Interiors.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, January 15, 2020

I like this comment!

tbh I might even say Frank's acting >> Woody's "acting"

omar otm, tho the 2 eps i saw of his sitcom w/ Elaine May were better than expected

manchurian candidate is better than any of quisper tarantino's movies, what's yr effin point

Tisa Farrow has a more interesting filmography than Mia Farrow

Sleeper is funnier than Dirty Dingus Magee

Frank basically desegregated Las Vegas, whereas I'm not sure Woody knows what nonwhite people are.

Frank basically desegregated Las Vegas

ehh this is a stretch

the racial patter w/ Sammy from some of the Rat Pack live recordings is less than sensitive

I'm not sure Woody knows what nonwhite people are

puts a lotta old jazz records on his soundtracks

puts a lotta old jazz records on his soundtracks

A regular Woody E. B. DuBois.

Frank's racial politics are interesting - he was definitely committed to integration and, in particular, making sure his fellow musicians/entertainers were treated fairly, but he simultaneously held very common attitudes that we would describe today as racist: freely using epithets, stereotypes, etc. It was like he was against institutionalized discrimination and racially motivated hatred, but didn't see tossing around the n-word in a jocular manner as being as being an issue because hey different ethnic groups making fun of each other was no big deal.

listening to his frequent lapses into an "Amos and Andy" voice is genuinely painful

classic "it's a joke, relaaaax, get a sense of humor!" guy

different ethnic groups making fun of each other was no big deal.

i grew up with this kind of humor tho w/in TV limits, usually

i take the 5th on any further discussion of its merits, but yay Uncle Floyd Show

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.