privilege as a meme

imagine the memoirs twenty years from now

I run in the same circles as Mykytyn in LA but never met her. Her death last week hit people pretty hard. She was incredibly thoughtful about this stuff and apparently about all aspects of parenting. I think her ideas come across a little clearer in writing. The general point that you’re not necessarily doing a school a favour by sending your kids there and being involved, and that it depends on your definition of “involved” seems sound. I think in practice (at least in LA) the kind of people who most need to hear that already moved out of LAUSD or sent their kids to private school though.

Here’s an obit btw https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/school-integration-activist-dies-at-46/2020/01/04/9d22af06-2e57-11ea-9b60-817cc18cf173_story.html

Also the public school situation wrt diversity, funding, etc. in LA is very different (much worse) to that in New York and while her org was nominally national I get the feeling her ideas were very influenced by circumstances in LA.

One last thing: if you haven’t read it, this is a fantastic (and subtle and sensitive) piece imo https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/12/magazine/choosing-a-school-for-my-daughter-in-a-segregated-city.html

The general point that you’re not necessarily doing a school a favour by sending your kids there and being involved, and that it depends on your definition of “involved” seems sound

Maybe it is, but then why do it?

Don't do it for your kids' sake. Don't do it for other kids' sake. Why do it?

I am familiar with Hannah-Jones's work.

As a reporter, I’d witnessed how the presence of even a handful of middle-class families made it less likely that a school would be neglected.

So isn't that just "white savior"ism (except not "white" in this case but affluent)?

Don't do it for your kids' sake. Don't do it for other kids' sake. Why do it?

to expunge the sin from yr soul

I think the concern she had is that a certain kind of parent sends their kid to the local elementary school (always the elementary school, they go private for middle and high) with the idea that it’s a culturally improving exchange for everyone involved and elementary school is low stakes. But because they know how to do it, they aggressively advocate for their own kid at the expense of other (more needy?) kids in the school while they’re there. I can she why she’d end up focussed on this issue because it’s a particular problem in LA.

the idea of sending my kids to private school horrifies me. equally the idea of putting my kids into a terrible school where problem behaviour isn't addressed also horrifies me. the idea that i would get to weigh up this option is privilege. relative to what other parents' options are it's a privilege that's borderline obscene. i'm really grateful i don't live in a place where i have to make these decisions.

I am familiar with Hannah-Jones's work.

/As a reporter, I’d witnessed how the presence of even a handful of middle-class families made it less likely that a school would be neglected./

So isn't that just "white savior"ism (except not "white" in this case but affluent)?

who are these people who aggressively advocate for things at their kids' schools? who has time/energy for this?? i mean hats off to those who do i guess, if it's advocacy that helps the school at large but yes i can see big-time why that would be a mark of privilege. that said in my neighbourhood in london there is a not-insubstantial contingent of busybody working class mums (it's always mums) who are nobody's picture of privilege but who are constantly up in the head teacher's grill, pestering her about everything. i'm grateful for them tbh.

In another episode, the hosts tied themselves in knots about how even sending your kid to a poor minority school can be "opportunity hoarding" if you treat it as an experience primarily to benefit your kid (tbh I don't know if I'm relating this correctly bc I didn't understand it), but then at the same time, you also have to avoid the "white savior" mentality where you are sending your kid there to help the other kids, so somehow you are supposed to walk "down the middle" between these two things but I have no idea how that's supposed to happen.

i haven't heard the episode so obv i have no idea about how they discussed these things.

but is it possible that what you're hearing as "don't do this" and "don't do that" is closer to "be aware that some parents do this" and "be aware that some parents do that"?

I think the concern she had is that a certain kind of parent sends their kid to the local elementary school (always the elementary school, they go private for middle and high).

it sounds like, especially with "even sending your kid to a poor minority school can be "opportunity hoarding" if you treat it as an experience primarily to benefit your kid", you kind of extrapolated what they said into "if you think this should be a good thing for your kid, you're wrong"

who are these people who aggressively advocate for things at their kids' schools? who has time/energy for this?? i mean hats off to those who do i guess, if it's advocacy that helps the school at large but yes i can see big-time why that would be a mark of privilege. that said in my neighbourhood in london there is a not-insubstantial contingent of busybody working class mums (it's always mums) who are nobody's picture of privilege but who are constantly up in the head teacher's grill, pestering her about everything. i'm grateful for them tbh.

but is it possible that what you're hearing as "don't do this" and "don't do that" is closer to "be aware that some parents do this" and "be aware that some parents do that"?

― But guess what? Nobody gives a toot!😂 (Karl Malone), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 16:24 (twenty-two minutes ago) link

As far as the other episode, one of them literally said you should never pull your child out of a school and never reject a school as "too bad." Another host was slightly more measured about it, but only slightly.

since moving to Paris we've sent our kids to schools where they've been pretty much the only white kid, because these are the local schools. The laws give these schools considerable extra funding, so class sizes are smaller and "the best" teachers get recruited there. I have colleagues who fight/cheat to get their kids into "the best" schools but I scorn all parents who do that kind of thing; and those who move "because of the schools", usually to some loathsome suburb; but that's more a usa thing afaict.

the idea of sending my kids to private school horrifies me. equally the idea of putting my kids into a terrible school where problem behaviour isn't addressed also horrifies me. the idea that i would get to weigh up this option is privilege. relative to what other parents' options are it's a privilege that's borderline obscene. i'm really grateful i don't live in a place where i have to make these decisions.

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, January 7, 2020 11:16 AM (thirty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

But living in a place where you don't have to make those decisions is the very same "borderline obscene" privilege.

since moving to Paris we've sent our kids to schools where they've been pretty much the only white kid, because these are the local schools. The laws give these schools considerable extra funding, so class sizes are smaller and "the best" teachers get recruited there. I have colleagues who fight/cheat to get their kids into "the best" schools but I scorn all parents who do that kind of thing; and those who move "because of the schools", usually to some loathsome suburb; but that's more a usa thing afaict.

― juntos pedemos (Euler), Tuesday, January 7, 2020 11:49 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

That's another topic the podcast addresses. They call this the "hidden gem" narrative, which basically means being a parent who sends your kid to a "hidden gem" mostly minority school that is "actually much better than people think" by the same "privileged" standards. This is also not ok. You have to be willing to send your child to a school that is actually bad.

But yeah things are diff in the USA, and also wildly different by state/municipality/school district.

Is it ok to homeschool your kid if you do a really shitty job at it?

yeah I didn't know these schools are "actually" good! I just followed where we were assigned by the city/académie.

nb until hs I went to bused schools in the deep south which were violent places of disregard for education and it didn't matter for my education, so I'm pretty nonchalant about these things for my own kids. feel like a lot of white american parents overthink schooling, probably because their parents did so and it was a formative stressful experience

that's one of the things i'm trying to keep in mind as we get ready for this (eldest is still a toddler, but it's coming): the strongest predictor of any kid's "success" (for pretty much any definition, from the bringing up bebe free range kids view to the "must go to stanford" view) is the economic circs and education of the parents. and honestly we're rich and overeducated.

if you find it frustrating to hear someone tie themselves in knots trying to figure out if using their privilege to dismantle privilege is privileged or whatever then take what you need and leave the rest. i'm glad she did the work she did.

(i mentioned the hannah-jones piece btw because if you talk to Integrated Schools it's literally among the first couple of things they suggest you read. the list might be interesting https://integratedschools.org/resources/)

In full disclosure I am following this topic because they are proposing changing the way middle school is done in my own school dist (kids are elementary school right now) in ways that could include dezoning, which would mean sending my kids 45 minutes on public transit to schools I consider "actually bad."

feel like a lot of white american parents overthink schooling

I heartily agree. otoh, gabbneb would disagree.

I also attended a busing school and a mostly black magnet school fwiw, and had good experiences. But that doesn't mean I think I would have been ok attending any school on the planet no matter the problems there.

i'm not sure if this is what you're saying, and if it is i can totally (totally!) appreciate the stress of this stuff, but i don't think that's a fair reading of what mykytyn was advocating for.

there's an interesting (awful!) local situation close to where she lived by the way, which is pasadena school district. pasadena is a rich and *incredibly* overeducated city (caltech! jpl!). it was desgregated (by supreme court ruling IIUC?) in the 70s.

it was one of the few places this happened in socal. school districts here are generally carved up to make it impossible to desegregate them without inter-district transfer, i.e. they are almost entirely kids of a single race/economic group. pasadena was a rare exception and it was super segregated. so they desegregated it with busing.

the result was (and still is) that public school attendance is incredibly low in pasadena, with the implications for their state funding, and white kids just don't go to public schools there. their parents moved over the border to south pasadena or la cañada (JPL employees can send their kids to the public schools there), or went private. all of which has the expected effect on test scores, which is what the likes of redfin show housebuyers as a proxy for "are the schools good". and it becomes a feedback loop. it's not clear how they're going to get out of it.

and of course the schools are fine, or they would be if they were properly funded.

man alive re: my privilege, i live in one of the poorest boroughs in London that, because of massive public investment in early years education over time, has largely excellent primary schools. i have my pick of three great primary schools within walking distance. four if i were willing to join the church of england lol. anyway I'd call that fairly lucky for me, and the consequence of many years of hard work on the part of central and local government, but i wouldn't call it an example of privilege exactly, certainly not white privilege, because everyone at the school (majority BAME and east european) gets access to it. and i don't even have to agitate for anything! win win

i'm not sure if this is what you're saying, and if it is i can totally (totally!) appreciate the stress of this stuff, but i don't think that's a fair reading of what mykytyn was advocating for.

― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, 7 January 2020 17:30 (fifty-six minutes ago) link

Did you listen to the segment of the podcast on "too bad" schools? That is literally what she advocates.

no i didn't listen to the podcast. i'm going by interviews i've read. it's not what she was (or her org is) about IME, but i defer to people who listen to podcasts about the content of podcasts.

tbf, I wasn't sure whose voice was whose so I wasn't sure which of them was saying no school is too bad and which was telling the story about her daughter crying every day (but keeping her there anyway). The latter seemed a little more reluctant about the idea that "no school is 'too bad'"

haha fair enough

I mean, to be clear, I don't think the problem is that any one point they are making (other than "no school is too bad for your kid") is inherently "unsound" so much as that when you put them all together, the total picture feels like a kind of social justice martyrdom (btw, they have an episode where they try to debunk the narrative of 'sacrificing your child on the altar of social justice,' but I have a hard time accepting that the woman whose daughter cried every day after school wasn't doing exactly that).

i can see that. they are certainly zealous and it seems like they don't make a ton of space for people dealing with this for the first time, which may be a tactical mistake as well as unfair. the org's most concrete outreach thing is this https://integratedschools.org/two-tour-pledge/ which is a lot more "we'll meet you halfway".

it's only SJ martyrdom if the "bad" schools are actually bad for your kids though, and i think one of the points we (and they?) would make is that most of *our* kids are going to be fine at most schools because of how the world works. in the limit of "no school is too bad" though that breaks down because, yeah, some are too bad.

I think "our kids will be fine" is rather vague and not sufficiently backed by evidence. The only evidence usually cited is that wealth and parental educational attainment are the biggest predictors of success. That is a far cry from saying "affluent kids turn out fine no matter what." They don't.

Another flaw I find in their discussions is they seem overly focused on elementary school, which IME is the age at which the differences will be least stark.

DCPS has plenty of schools that are too bad. Thankfully there’s the lottery, so you can still send your kids to a good or great school that’s also integrated. I’m still pissed about the pass we give to charter schools though (pats self on back)

I think "our kids will be fine" is rather vague and not sufficiently backed by evidence.

correct. i'm glossing. but if i add a "probably" in there then it is backed by evidence.

fwiw i found this comment useful on that evidence, which is basically what you say: https://ask.metafilter.com/329141/Do-we-move-to-a-better-school-district-If-so-when#4738658.

Another flaw I find in their discussions is they seem overly focused on elementary school, which IME is the age at which the differences will be least stark.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, January 7, 2020 2:54 PM (twenty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

your complaints seem to be to do with them being too zealous, but the choice to focus on elementary seems tactical and pragmatic:

it's easiest to persuade nervous parents of the principle that academic stakes are lowest at that level. and elementary schools perform much better on paper than middle/HS in her home town, so it's a particularly easy sell in practice. and if your goal is to get people to go to public schools, it's best to start at the top of the pipeline, not near the end. so it makes sense to me to focus the effort and rhetoric there given their goals.

For more Hannah-Jones and a wonderful 8-episode podcast about the history of schooling and integration/segregation in a Brooklyn district and recent events in parent organizing, may I suggest

https://www.schoolcolorspodcast.com/

The hosts are leaders of a local org that I have worked with and adore. The podcast and the history that it describes has been intensely present in my life because I've been employed by the teacher's union for almost 5 years and smack in the middle of this wreckage. Several of my colleagues work in affected schools in District 16.

I think this is a much more nuanced take from the perspective of actual Black parents of public school students, one which doesn't claim to have all the facile answers like "always do this" or "never do this." Fucking great imo.

I do generally like her, so I'll give that a listen.

I find the "how to be a sufficiently good white person" stuff hard to stomach as it just seems so navel-gazing. Which is why I posted all this to the "privilege as a meme" thread.

I think "our kids will be fine" is rather vague and not sufficiently backed by evidence.
correct. i'm glossing. but if i add a "probably" in there then it is backed by evidence.

fwiw i found this comment useful on that evidence, which is basically what you say: https://ask.metafilter.com/329141/Do-we-move-to-a-better-school-district-If-so-when#4738658.

― 𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Tuesday, January 7, 2020 3:21 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't think this really resolves my issue though. Again, this just goes back to saying that family income etc. are bigger predictors than other factors. That doesn't mean the other factors are insignificant. It's a little like saying "Don't bother to exercise, the biggest factor in weight loss is diet."

I want to change the course of this conversation with this: https://www.thecut.com/2020/01/lingua-franca-and-the-rise-of-the-resistance-socialite.html

xpost oof. i'm was agreeing with you, not trying to resolve your comment like a jira ticket.

i'm was

I, on the other hand, am absolutely trying to move your comment to Code Review

my revive of the wikipedia thread was supposed to be about code review if that helps.