The Independence of Liz Phair

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"I tamper with everything, including coffee," she said

Reading this makes me want to listen to Agoraphobic Nosebleed at full volume, while watching looped 9/11 videos.

― ugly and mean, Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:09 (eighteen years ago) link

If you read STE's Pink reviews, you'd think luxuro-pop would be his bag.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:10 (eighteen years ago) link

NOT WHEN IT REEKS OF UNIMAGINATIVE SELF-DESECRATION

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:12 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't mind obviousness of form but I don't think it works well there. "Extraordinary" is a kind of goof on obsession, but it forces its charm and ends up cutsey ("I am just your ordinary average every day sane psycho super-goddess," ugh). "Why Can't I" seems similar to me, not in theme but in gush. They might as well be Diane Warren songs, except they're nowhere near as good as "Unbreak My Heart."

I really like "Little Digger" maybe because it reachs a little further. Which is kind of what I find amazing about Phair--she writes really well when she's tweaking cliches, or avoiding them as much as she can. She does it without it feeling forced or awkward. It's a real gift. And I think on that album she just kowtowed to it. As an excercise it's really brilliant, probably. As a bunch of songs, not so much.

xpost: Pink's a good example, actually! I believed her cliches for whatever reason. I didn't believe Liz's. Go figure.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:14 (eighteen years ago) link

and no, "believe" is not really the right word. "fell for" or "bought into" or "dug where they were coming from" or "appreciated" is probably closer.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Does "Little Digger" really dig further or does it just express self-doubt while the others are assured?

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Maybe more to the point: Phair is a great storyteller. I like her narrative songs more than her non-narrative songs, generally speaking, on whatever record. (This is a big part of my attraction to Craig Finn and John Darnielle as lyricists, too.)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't see "Little Digger" as being any more self-doubtful than "Extraordinary" or certainly "Why Can't I." If anything it's less so!

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:30 (eighteen years ago) link

um, dude, "Extraordinary" describes admiring and somewhat getting over a crush because of her sense of self-worth. "Why Can't I?" is glowing because she's found someone who makes her feel good. "Little Digger" is about worrying she's fucked her kid up.

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:34 (eighteen years ago) link

well if the songs weren't so fucking lousy I'd have remembered them better!

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:35 (eighteen years ago) link

(ha ha)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:36 (eighteen years ago) link

(rimshot)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:37 (eighteen years ago) link

"It's Sweet" is fantastic.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:38 (eighteen years ago) link

my half-kidding kneejerkitude aside, I think you can understand how I might hear a chorus like "Why can't I breathe whenever I think about you" as self-doubtful.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:39 (eighteen years ago) link

who knows, matos? maybe you forgot they were good! or to talk out of the mouth hole!

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:40 (eighteen years ago) link

haha yes you're absolutely the person to make that last comment, or the first one

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Whatever happend to the Action Swingers?

― Ian Christe (Ian Christe), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:43 (eighteen years ago) link

On one hand it's typical Clear Channel sentiments, but her will-to-power is immensely attractive; she puts her stamp on factory material.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:43 (eighteen years ago) link

hey, if I start telling people that "Don't Let Get Me" is happier than "Get This Party Started," please call me on it.

x-post

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:43 (eighteen years ago) link

haha yes, because self-doubt and happiness are always at completely opposite ends of the spectrum, it is not possible to express one with any of the other mixed in, not to mention I didn't call anything "happy" in the first place.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:45 (eighteen years ago) link

if I start telling people that "Get This Party Started" has more self-doubt than "Don't Let Me Get Me," please call me on it.

― miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 2 August 2005 23:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Let's put it in Matos terms: "Let's Pretend We're Married" vs "I Could Never Take The Place Of Your Man"

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:05 (eighteen years ago) link

"in Matos terms"? wow, I thought Anthony was a condescending bitch!

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:07 (eighteen years ago) link

all kidding aside, Alfred, I'm not sure how that works as an analogy

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:08 (eighteen years ago) link

both "LPWM" and "ICNTTPOYM" are celebratory-sounding and have a whole lotta self-doubt at their centers. which is how I'd heard "Why Can't I" (wrongly, I guess)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:11 (eighteen years ago) link

man I just don't get it I guess. I totally felt surprised to see the article in the paper this morning; I felt like I was reading an article about, I dunno, the indie Steve Winwood (solo career only) or something. Prior to this thread I did not think I knew anybody who cared one way or the other if Liz Phair never recorded another note of music again.

...also, deflecting questions is Being Interviewed 101: Liz wants to talk about how her indie fans feel betrayed or she wouldn't do so. Christ, she's on a major; there are people who set up the interviews for her, and they steer interviews pretty smoothly in the directions they like.

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:14 (eighteen years ago) link

what's the self-doubt in either? "Your Man" just politely tells a girl that he doesn't have any interest in doing anything beyond nailing her, and as for "LPWM"

My girl's gone and she don't care at all
And if she did -- I wouldn't care. Let's ball

Whatever U heard about me is true
I change the rules and do what I wanna do

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:15 (eighteen years ago) link

mic Matos is right here - how can you not hear self doubt in "I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man"? The title alone is riddled with self-doubt!

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:17 (eighteen years ago) link

dude she's looking for someone to take care of her kids! If I told a pregnant woman who just lost her babydaddy I couldn't take the place of her man I wouldn't say I'm being self-doubtful!

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:19 (eighteen years ago) link

But that's my point! LPWM is "Rock Me", ICNTTPOYM [try typing that more than twice] is "Fuck & Run" and "Why Can't I?"

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Liz rides the hobbyhorse pretty hard now

Pictures, please.

― M. V. (M.V.), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:20 (eighteen years ago) link

Guys, if we keep this up thru the night we can surpass the number of postings on the Dave Matthews thread!

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:21 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah but he's Prince, he's massively into the sort of relationship values implied by fatherhood - even when he's in his sex-you-up persona, he's never further than spitting distance from basic souls-united-as-one stuff! he means both "I ain't gonna take the place" and "I, as your lover, lack the depth of your husband"

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:22 (eighteen years ago) link

what depth did her husband have? He left her with a kid while pregnant!

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:23 (eighteen years ago) link

Guys, if we keep this up thru the night we can surpass the number of postings on the Dave Matthews thread!

yeah but I'd be cheating 'cause I really couldn't care if Liz releases a triple-disc of trombone improvisation, my presence in this thread is strictly "wtf, people are interested in Liz Phair" with a smidgen of Prince exegesis thrown in for texture

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:24 (eighteen years ago) link

xpost to Banana: I'm less surprised, but that's because the Capitol reps have been contacting me for a month now about the solo show she's playing in Seattle later this month, so I just figured it was the beginning of a big push for the next record.

AM: yeah I suppose yr right about "Your Man" though I hear regret in it as much as anything ("I Could" being key here, as in "I'm not capable of"). but "LPWM" is not exactly what I would call loaded with self-confidence. most people I know don't go out hunting for a snarling revenge-fuck when they feel GOOD about themselves, particularly. the second stanza you quote isn't part of the main body of the song anyway, it's an add-on at the end, and it just emphasizes the bravado without actually being all that convincing, which is why it works--when you're that upset about something your pride and anger puff up and you get defensive. (like me earlier in this thread, ahem.)

(I do think it's funny that I thought "Why Can't I" was more ambiguous lyrically than it actually was--the exact opposite of what most of the people who disliked the song for being unambiguous.)

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:24 (eighteen years ago) link

lotta xposts in that one

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:25 (eighteen years ago) link

yes mic but he's the father of the child! this role has meaning for Prince (note: both for Prince The Dude and for "Prince," narrator of Prince songs) whether the father's a decent guy or whatever! You're telling me Prince doesn't invest fatherhood with an almost Mosaic depth? Watch one Purple Rain

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:25 (eighteen years ago) link

anyway I'm seeing Alfred's point a lot more clearly now

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:27 (eighteen years ago) link

(nb I know what I mean by "Mosaic" even if it probably doesn't make any sense at all)

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:27 (eighteen years ago) link

Yes you can read a lot of self-doubt into these songs when you ignore the majority of the track (for instance, the cocksure glee of the music) and focus solely on a specific line "Help me forget about my girl" and "I could never take the place of your man"

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:27 (eighteen years ago) link

YES ANTHONY I IGNORE THE MAJORITY OF THE TRACKS IN PRINCE SONGS OMG YOU ARE ON FUCKING MARS DUDE

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:29 (eighteen years ago) link

"Why Can't I" is TOTALLY ambivalent, Matos. Note the qualifiers: "It's just like we were meant to be"; "got a girlfriend, you say it isn't right"; her intense need to assure her lover that "it's inevitable"; the final devastating "It's a fact that we're gonna get down to it."

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm not saying the tracks are DEVOID of self-doubt but to say these songs are rife with them is kinda willful.

x-post Matos, I'm referring to these specific songs. I'm on the planet where we read each others posts in full and back up our arguments, ok?

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:30 (eighteen years ago) link

I only cited LPWM because it's a perfect example of Prince at his most cocksure. There are any number of early Prince songs ("When U Were Mine") and later ones racked with self-doubt.

― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:32 (eighteen years ago) link

a specific line "Help me forget about my girl" and "I could never take the place of your man"

"a specific line" like THE FUCKING TITLE OF THE SONG

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:35 (eighteen years ago) link

not to be all aggro but songwriters generally put some thought into the song's tagline, especially canny motherfuckers like Prince...he gives the song a chorus (big ol' punchline chorus, too) & title that's first person negative. "I Could Never." Kinda implicitly self-doubtful. Then, he finds some cocksureness in his self-doubt. Kinda his M.O. for much of his best shctick.

― Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:38 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't hear it that way, Alfred, and I never have. From the music on down, "LPWM" is riddled with angst; it's the tensest thing he ever recorded, like it's about to snap at any moment. That doesn't really spell "cocksure" to me, not the way something with more ease of movement does--even something similar sonically/arrangementwise like "It" does, and that song is totally about feeling self-doubtful.

Banana is completely OTM.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:40 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm on the planet where we read each others posts in full and back up our arguments, ok?

I'm still waiting for you to do the latter.

― Matos-Webster Dictionary (M Matos), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Look, you guys can deny Prince healthy rebound fucks and regret his inability to get involved with desperate babymommas if you like, I'm not going to focus solely on subtext for the sake of a pedantic argument inspired by someone's inability to remember what two other songs are actually about and his desperate attempts to one-up the person who pointed it out.

― miccio (miccio), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 00:52 (eighteen years ago) link

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