I Really Dislike Frank Sinatra: How alone am I?

As far as I'm concerned, crooners are one of the least intelligible aspects of American popular culture.

Someone gifted me OG copies of just about every classic Sinatra Capitol album (and even some not so Classic ones). The Lonesome Road is such a great song.

A jazz singer that can’t scat is like a basketball player that can’t dribble.

I don’t know who this Pete Buttigieg guy is but I like him already.

Pete "Bebop" Buttigieg

I don't know anyone credible who considers Sinatra a jazz singer. He was a pop singer, and a great one at that. But jazz musicians revered him for his musicianship. "If I could put together exactly the kind of band I wanted, Frank Sinatra would be the singer," Lester Young once said.

And sorry, but scat singing is not a prerequisite to singing jazz, any more than vocalese is. I guess Billie Holiday wasn't a jazz singer? Donrosebud's initial post is so ridiculous that I can't tell if he's putting us on or not.

Someone get Scatbo in here for a second opinion

lol

http://johnlahr.com/frank-sinatra/

Someone get Scatbo in here for a second opinion

― Evan, Friday, December 20, 2019 10:04 AM (twenty-seven minutes ago)

the moment when the FBI special liquids division was called to the scene

i kind of nod in the general direction of frank sinatra because so many people respect him, he was a pioneer in some ways (arguably the first "album" of songs meant to work together as a cohesive set of music? many people are saying? he always gets this accolade but it always seems like someone else must have done it first and just wasn't as famous), and apart from anything else he's a major cultural figure of 20th century america. when you're stumbling around the kitchen at 2am swishing around ice in a hatch rocks glass, you might say to yourself "ring a ding ding", absent-mindedly, and that means...something

but yeah, can't stand the way he sings. just not my thing at all

and plus, he can't scat! and that means he's not a jazz singer! lol

where's the safe for work scat thread? want to weigh in on how it's important to the 21st century but also not my thing at all

want to weigh in on how it's important to the 21st century

sorry, i meant - very obviously - the 20th century

arguably the first "album" of songs meant to work together as a cohesive set of music? many people are saying? he always gets this accolade but it always seems like someone else must have done it first and just wasn't as famous

as the piece Οὖτις linked mentions, it wasn't even possible much earlier since it was in major part a product of technological advancements

I don't know anyone credible who considers Sinatra a jazz singer. He was a pop singer, and a great one at that.

The distinction between "jazz" and "pop" is pretty fuzzy wrt the pre-rock era tbf.

Donrosebud, it's 99% of that jazz shit that is not music

gtfo

I can totally understand why the crooners became a sensation, after centuries of singers belting it out full force on stage trying to reach the punters in the back you suddenly get to hear measured, velvery soft voices on your radio, it must have been amazing.

Sinatra's conversational cadences are why I love him.

The distinction between "jazz" and "pop" is pretty fuzzy wrt the pre-rock era tbf.
Not fuzzy at all when you consider that one genre relies heavily on improvisation and the other does not.

How strictly did most people recognize that distinction at the time? Sinatra sang with Tommy Dorsey's and Harry James's big bands, he topped Down Beat's vocalist poll in 1941.

Sinatra played with jazz giants throughout his whole career - Dorsey, Basie, Jobim etc.

er sang with

The ballads are nice but I like the corny, swinging Sinatra even more. My favorite is Sinatra at the Sands because you get the corny jokes and banter as well.

Sinatra, Elvis, Streisand — undeniably enormously talented, but I'm not interested in the material they applied it to. (Exceptions apply for all 3)

How strictly did most people recognize that distinction at the time? Sinatra sang with Tommy Dorsey's and Harry James's big bands, he topped Down Beat's vocalist poll in 1941.

Sinatra played with jazz giants throughout his whole career - Dorsey, Basie, Jobim etc.
He also collaborated with Bono. That doesn't make him a pretentious rock poseur, however.

http://johnlahr.com/frank-sinatra/

― Οὖτις, Friday, December 20, 2019 11:12 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Great piece! Thanks.

i read that piece a while back, it's great

it's also weird that ppl keep bringing up elvis in this thread, he really has very little in common w/ sinatra apart from being a dude who sings

My favorite is Sinatra at the Sands because you get the corny jokes and banter as well.

I was listening to this earlier in the week - I agree that it's great (albeit not my favorite) - and so many of the jokes are totally inscrutable, not just because there's audience interaction clearly going on that couldn't be captured in an audio recording, but more because so much of the context for his rambling is incomprehensible from a remove of 5+ decades.

Granted, the Dino jokes are still funny.

i think it's just the prevalent (and, occasionally in their latter years, accurate) image of them both being corny showmen more than inspired musicians.

Sinatra rules of course, i actually prefer him to Elvis tbqf

I do too and its not even close

same

same

Donrosebud, it's 99% of that jazz shit that is not music

gtfo

― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Friday, December 20, 2019 12:08 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

dang, that is stone cold!

i love sinatra - esp love the recent 3-disc Standing Room Only (with shows from Sands in 66, Spectrum in Philly in 74 and Reunion Arena in Dallas in 87).

does hurting still hate him in 2019? hard to imagine someone hating him tho i do understand hating him if yr only exposure is New York New York

i love elvis but his career is incredibly inconsistent even during his "good" periods. there are tons of sinatra albums i can put on and enjoy from start to finish, which is not really the case with elvis other than the sun sessions.

Frank over Elvis here, too.

Miles Davis once said Sinatra inspired much of his phrasing on the trumpet.

He said something similar about Blossom Dearie as well, iirc.

I love Frank, it's Dino who leaves me cold.

Dino seems like the more likable *person* but christ his records are bad

is there a definitive Frank biography? even that two-part HBO doc barely seemed to scratch the surface

Dino's voice is very pleasing, and it works well if you don't give a shit as he doesn't

Elvis was a huge fan and debtor

Dean's career is basically an inside joke, which is abundantly clear when you see vintage Martin & Lewis TV appearances, and he's as funny as Jerry.

not denying he was v funny, and charming when singing on-screen. but the records? nah

wondering how many people itt regularly or ever listen to music featuring scat singing of any kind

it's all bobby mcpherrin, all day in my world

also frank rules.

I'm listening to Terry Callier right now! Man could scat.

I *love* Callier, esp The New Folk Sound of