US Politics, December 2019: Profound procedural deficiencies

xpost to unperson:

He has separate, distinct thoughts which he can connect to each other, and pronounces the words he uses. That's the big difference.

(Also he is expressing a moral concept, no matter whether anyone agrees with it, or how sincere he was, that is not solely about whether he himself is being fairly treated. It also relies on accepting the abstract notion of leadership carrying responsibility. These are both absent from his communication today.)

xps Why is having the whistleblower as a witness such a bugaboo for them?

First, they want to intimidate future whistleblowers. Also, they want the chance to have a known person they can character assassinate as a Deep State Trump hater and whatever else they think they can make stick.

Then, knowing the Democrats would never agree to this, they want to make it an issue so as to imply the process is rigged against Trump, because they can't call the witnesses they want to call. It also gives them cover for denying the Democrats the chance to call Bolton or Mulvaney.

That second one makes the most sense. Because even if the Whistleblower were a full-blown anti Trump person, it doesn't alter the facts of what they blew the whistle over in the first place. Better to make them out a shadowy evil doer (Soros?) that we will never know then add them to the list of witnesses we've already heard from.

And I know these GOP assholes are disingenuous to the extreme, but the two things that bother me the most is the brazen way they claim they were not privy to documents ... while the White House withholds documents. And that they have not been able to hear from certain witnesses ... while the White House prevents witnesses - potentially exonerating witnesses (lol) - from testifying. How to you even counter such overt bullshittery? The GOP might as well accuse the Dems of invoking Double Secret Probation. They practically have.

which is more likely: that all the republicans wanting to reveal the whistleblower are using a strategy that is coordinated and purposeful, or that trump just starting blurting out that he wanted to reveal the whistleblower over and over until republicans starting backing him up when asked by reporters if they agreed with him?

it's comforting to think that things should make sense, even when it's the GOP doing it, but the entire GOP whistleblower thing is predicated on people NOT understanding what a whistleblower even is and what rights they are afforded.

I don't have any "boys"

excited for trump's crucifixion

i'm guessing he will not forgive them for what they do

Odds that Trump supporters will co-opt (or even campaign on) "impeached" as a t-shirt worthy compliment, a la "deplorable"?

other shoe

https://www.politico.com/news/2019/12/18/trump-impeachment-trial-steny-hoyer-087319

I think this is a good idea and hope they go through with it. Probably they won't.

why do this and not a 21-gun impeachment? seems half-assed.

Hoyer said Democratic colleagues have approached him in recent days, citing an op-ed by constitutional lawyer Laurence Tribe in which he calls on Democrats to delay sending impeachment articles to the Senate until McConnell agrees to run a fairer process.

“Under the current circumstances, such a proceeding would fail to render a meaningful verdict of acquittal,” Tribe wrote. Notably, House Judiciary Committee Democrats huddled with Tribe earlier this month as they practiced behind closed doors for their series of impeachment hearings.

Some Democrats said they became convinced such a move was under consideration when House leaders decided against naming impeachment managers — the set of lawmakers who would argue their case on the Senate floor — until an undetermined later date.

I'm not crazy abt the attenuated impeachment terms but I don't think delaying the articles defeats the purpose of that strategy.

People are dumb and need to hear even the simple charges repeated and examined. The more time the better, esp. if MCConnell is pledging to rush through the trial.

And especially if Giuliani keep raising the stakes in real time, while more stuff leaks

i understand the thought behind tribe's idea, but they would also need to grapple with the very real possibility (even strong likelihood) that they would never send the articles to the senate. mcconnell isn't going to change anything. let's say a month has gone by in this fashion, with the articles of impeachment approved by the house but still not sent to the senate, and nothing has changed. What then? wait some more, until election day?

Tribe is seeking leverage to move McConnell in a direction McConnell doesn't want to go, but imo delay is unlikely to work. This is the man who was happy to sit on a Supreme Court nomination for ten months and who paid no price for that. A delay of the impeachment trial that he did not initiate, accompanied by Democratic demands he can dismiss as long as he wants, will not impress him.

Immediately after Gohmert finished speaking, Rep. Jerry Nadler, the Democratic chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, said, “I am deeply concerned that any member of the House would spout Russian propaganda on the floor of the House.”

This criticism triggered a heated response from Gohmert, who returned to the podium, shouting, but the microphone had been turned off.

Projection forever:

Here's video of Trump in 2014 saying what being impeached would do to Obama: "He would be a mess. He would be thinking about nothing but. It would be a horror show for him. It would be an absolute embarrassment. It would go down on his record permanently." pic.twitter.com/WctYjnjsP1

— andrew kaczynski🤔 (@KFILE) December 18, 2019

can i ask everyone to observe a moment of silent reflection

Rep. Bill Johnson (R-OH) used his time to observe a "moment of silent reflection" for 63 million Americans -- Trump voters who, he said, would be “disenfranchised" by an impeachment vote. pic.twitter.com/KmWWdmcED0

— TPM Livewire (@TPMLiveWire) December 18, 2019

Delay seems useful for Giuliani to keep revealing more, and also if they're going to bother to add emoluments charges involving Trumps properties, businessess, and in-White-House children. The American media seems incapable of reporting his crimes as crimes, so this at least gets it read into the record.

Delaying just for procedural reasons makes the House dems look wishy-washy.

xp shouldn't it be a moment of silent reflection for the 300+ electoral college voters who got him elected

Exactly, if they want to delay, might as well bring more witnesses to the House

xp

God I listened to some of the hearings and the ping-ponging back and forth between milktoast Dems and the insanity of Republicans made me want to drive off the road.

The House has never heard such remarkable statesmanship.

The Dems sound fine to me.

swamp!
elitists!
hoax!
sham!

-Fear Factory

excited for trump's crucifixion

Oh leave the stone alone, (sha-la-la-la push-push)
Let it stay and let him moan. (sha-la-la-la push-push)

I keep checking in and these people are still talking. Could someone text me when it's time to vote

They're starting now, 15 minute vote on article 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKSgxJhVFcU

Reportedly a Republican voted yes? Or was that Amash?

there was a Republican "Yea" that popped up on CSPAN briefly but it seems that's been removed. Maybe a mistake?

Amash is the Independent vote I'm assuming

Tulsi votes “present”

dimwit

they immediately threw the Republican in the trash compactor so now he is no longer with us, no more vote

cannot believe how many people I knew riding for Tulsi.

impeached on both charges. well, the part we had any control over is over.

Congrats on executing trump

it's about to get really agonizing

yup

meanwhile Cillizza is writing about how this is helping Trump, based on his cherrypicking of one poll that does not match others that came out just yesterday.

that's why he makes the big money

As Chris Matthews just said (lol I know), given Trump is so obsessed with appearance, this means he will now do literally anything to get reelected.

Unlike before

I'm ecstatic right now.

I know it "means" shit.

Fuck you if you're not happy.

he will have a painting commissioned of his asshole and have it sent to everybody in Congress

i'm happy.

it's a day we never thought would come and it's here.

Trump has media lackeys he doesn't have to pay to carry his water for him, plus he has a massive war chest to buy media ads, making his 'case' which almost completely lacks a factual basis, but consists mostly on discrediting or denying every scrap of evidence, every word of testimony, and every Democrat in Congress as biased or malignantly motivated. Plus many total mischaracterizations of the evidence, endlessly repeated.

So, it is better to tune out the majority of it as nothing new. The only important part will be how the Senate rules get written and McConnell apparently can't ram through the exact rules he most wants enacted, so the real action will take place between him and Schumer. Uh, mmm, hurrah??