Is this anti-semitism?

Right, which is why I refer to 'the use made of' the concerns (to try and split momentum/young activist/Muslim Labour party members off from the Jewish party members amongst other things). The actual concerns were one thing, the reportage was another.

Idt this is happening apart from a fringe nobody likes or endorses anyway. Gove’s speech that mentioned it was of more concern to people I know.

I wasn’t directing it to you directly cardamon, more to a certain type of very online leftist discourse that I have seen here and around.

Also being concerned by the behaviour of the main left wing party does not mean being totally cool with the behaviour of the main right wing party which is a weird defence of Labour’s actions I’ve seen going around.

No yeah, I just wanted to make clear I agree with you.

I always rather thought you could expect Palestinian flag lapel pin protest guy, and moderate Zionist guy, to come to terms with each other qua both being Labour party members, if it were just a local party meeting with biscuits. They'd probably discover about each other that they just cared about human rights, etc. I'm happy to be informed otherwise but it feels to me as if the split were engendered by Tory journalists finding this potential conflict within the membership and gleefully enlarging on it, more than by either of the two broadly defined type of Labour voter acting up. This anyway is the diplomatic line I will be talking if it comes up.

Tories journalists simply ran away with a situation that shouldn’t have existed in the first place, like Corbyn refusing to endorse a notion that ‘a people has a right to self determination’ which is a horrific notion, no matter which people we may talk about.

like Corbyn refusing to endorse a notion that ‘a people has a right to self determination’ which is a horrific notion

What?

Plenty of 'peoples' get this whether we like it or not, is the spanner in the works imo. I am not the expert in the room of course. But to attempt to judge fairly the question whether Jews are a nation, and thus should get a nation state, requires us to factor in that exclusive nationalism predates Zionism and had been achieved in practice, usually to the extreme cost to the Jewish populations of emergent national states, long before 1948. So to single out Zionism for censure is arguably unfair and double standards.

Which Corbyn should probably have noticed and presumably never did.

like Corbyn refusing to endorse a notion that ‘a people has a right to self determination’ which is a horrific notion

Which of Corbyn’s policies is this referring to?

Assume they mean IHRA?

There’s something incredibly ugly about the gleeful coverage of Alan “legitimate concerns” Johnson tearing a strip off Jon Lansman on tv being circulated atm.

Hard agree. He has NO business chiding Momentum, who slogged their guts out for all PPCs, and led the most dumbass Remain campaign ever.

am on bus coming home from central London, group of men behind me just started shouting ‘are there any Jews on the bus, Jews get off the bus, fucking Jews.’ I was shocked, turned around, thought of saying ‘yes me, please stop.’ Thought better of it. Never seen anything like it

— Hannah Partos (@hannahhh) December 14, 2019

Cool cool

And guess who's getting the blame for it in the replies to that tweet? Jeremy Corbyn! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/antisemitism-executive-order-trump-chilling-effect?

Really interesting piece on the exec order.

The writer of that piece just published this, commissioned by my college friend Nat, an editor there:

https://utorontopress.com/us/the-conflict-over-the-conflict-2

Yup, saw the link below the article.

started shouting ‘are there any Jews on the bus, Jews get off the bus, fucking Jews.’

ftr, definitely anti-Semitism

3 Tory MPs are under investigation for antisemitism. Take that in for a moment folks and imagine if this had been the Labour Party at any time in the last 3 years. Respect to @JewishChron for reporting this. Rest of the media? Hello? Are you there? Hello? Hello? https://t.co/sgtEJX3DZg

— Michael Rosen (@MichaelRosenYes) December 15, 2019

Re the above, can I do another perhaps slightly irritating 'Cardamon asks questions' post: are antisemites of the Soros conspiracy flavour more or less actively dangerous than the Israel/Palestine flavoured ones?

Jews secretly control the world vs. Israel is an apartheid state? Is that the sort of thing you mean?

Aye. I can see how both formulations could feed/inspire an act of violence, in that both are dehumanising, but I guess I'm asking is there data or worldly experience on which causes more damage or which is the more prevalent.

control-f Britain First

Local politicians and the jewish papers are showing their complete ignorance of local fascist activity in NW3/NW5. Sort it out - this is important stuff 🙄 https://t.co/SQkoyCATxJ

— jewdⒶs // ייִדהודה (@jewdas) December 29, 2019

https://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/article/5-stabbed-at-Hanukkah-celebration-in-rabbi-s-New-14937247.php

Remains to be seen if this was really an anti-semitic attack like the recent Black Hebrew Israelites one or something else, but I need more information on this previous arrest: "Thomas' criminal history includes an arrest for assaulting a police horse, according to an official briefed on the investigation."

Awful.

https://www.cjr.org/the_media_today/bret-stephens.php

As most people were winding down their work week and preparing to turn out the lights on 2019, Stephens chose to drop a column entitled The Secrets of Jewish Genius. In it, the Times columnist posed—and then tried to answer—the question of why there have been so many noteworthy Jewish scientists and thinkers. As he put it: “How is it that a people who never amounted even to one-third of 1 percent of the world’s population contributed so seminally to so many of its most pathbreaking ideas and innovations?”

In the end, Stephens comes to the conclusion that Jewish genius “operates differently” from the intelligence displayed by others. It is, he says, “prone to question the premise and rethink the concept; to ask why (or why not?) as often as how; to see the absurd in the mundane and the sublime in the absurd.” These differences, according to Stephens, stem from cultural factors, as well as a focus on questioning authority. But those ideas weren’t what triggered a multi-day backlash against Stephens or the Times (although many argued they were also wrong-headed). What drove the wave of criticism was that in the course of making this argument, Stephens cited a paper he said supported the theory that Ashkenazi Jews (i.e., those with a primarily European background) have higher IQs than the average population. Within hours of the column being posted, multiple people pointed out one of the co-authors of the paper had expressed racist views and had ties to white supremacist organizations, and that the journal the paper appeared in was formerly known as Eugenics Review.

it’s not antisemitic if the evidence of your callipers is that jewish people are superior, obv

i'll just head off whoever is rushing to this thread to excitedly post that jacobin article by noting that it is not good

Huh, didn't know Kenny G was Jewish. You should always learn at least one new thing about Kenny G each day.

The G stands for Genius.

Kenny "Gefilte Fish"

may there be a million kenny gorelick jokes before i'm forced to explain to a tankie why "socialism" is not the true answer to the problem of antisemitism

Multiple people have pointed out that Kenny G was formerly known as Kenny E, as in Kenny Eugenics.

Some normal opinions from today’s Holocaust Memorial Day debate in Parliament

Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury and Atcham) (Con)
The hon. Lady is making a very eloquent speech. Is she aware that 75 years on, Germany still refuses to pay victims of its atrocities in Poland—Poles and Polish Jews—while hiding behind an agreement that it signed with the illegitimate communist-era Government imposed on Poland by Stalin? Does she agree that the time has come for Germany to make war reparations to Poland and those who suffered at the hands of the brutal German oppressors from ’39 to ’45?

...

Daniel Kawczynski
My hon. Friend uses the term “Nazis”. The problem with that term is that it is a firewall between the real perpetrators, the Germans. We are now seeing a revisionism as to who was to blame for the start of the second world war; we heard President Putin last week claim that Poland was somehow partly responsible for starting it. It is very important not to use third-term expressions such as “Nazis”, but to say exactly who started this and who is responsible, which is Germany and the German people.

Ime that is in fact a normal opinion within the Polish community.

not sure what makes it relevant to this thread but i think the question of culpability a country owes for the crimes of a particular gov is an important but v tricky one. when i was younger i would've 100% signed onto Kawczynski's argument esp after reading Hitler's Willing Executioners - but it turns out the Goldhagen book is not a full picture. that said - it does seem clear that there was only marginal resistance to the extermination program within germany itself - Arendt points out in Eichmann in Jerusalem that many times German liaisons to other countries (responsible for handling the extermination programs in those countries) would start to have second thoughts about the mission once they were outside Germany proper - so there is this sense I think in the scholarship that Germany was in some tangible sense fully onboard the Nazi project. otoh i'm not sure saying "Nazi" lets Germany off the hook in any real sense.

I recognise that Poland was occupied and not every Pole was a collaborator - none of that is remotely disputed. But it seems a little, well, insensitive to start talking about Christian Poles in a Holocaust debate. There were other groups besides Jews who suffered and were targeted by the Nazis - Romani, gay people, the disabled - but I suppose I draw a line between the people the extermination was targeted at and the people of the occupied countries. It reminded me a bit of Marine le Pen’s argument that France wasn’t complicit for rounding up French Jews? Idk though, he has a lot of previous in insisting that Germany pay Poland reparations so he’s not exactly acting in good faith here.

My wife and I were handed a pamphlet on the first night of Hanukkah, while walking in greenpoint Brooklyn, by a guy from a Polish right wing group who are obsessed with clearing Poland’s ‘good name’ wrt wwii era atrocities and complicities. It was super fucking gross. I googled them after we hoofed it down the street - the Polish Anti Defamation League aka the Good Name Redoubt. Real thoughtful folks.

There were people singing traditional polish carols in front of a Polish restaurant with hot tables of food for passersby. “Would you like to try some traditional polish food?” Hm why yes I just might! “May I give you this? We believe the truth is what matters.” BARF

polish sensitivity about complicity in the holocaust is a really big thing involved legislation a year or so ago that made a minor imbroglio w/ the israeli gov. many years ago i wrote about a comic book that took place in sobibor and made the terrible mistake of calling it a polish death camp. i knew of course that it was polish in that it was in poland and not that the polish people ran it but there was an enormous tumult w/ lots of angry letters and thread discussions on polish language forums. it does seem pathological to some extent even putting aside what we know (like that many polish ppl were collaborators) bc how many americans could tell you anything about poland and ww2 really. sorta a non-issue unless it's gnawing at you.

I suppose I draw a line between the people the extermination was targeted at and the people of the occupied countries.

The treatment of occupied countries varied widely. For example, France was generally spared from the more brutal forms of German occupation. Greece was treated with extraordinary harshness, although it's true the Greeks were allowed to starve to death at home rather than be shipped to death camps. In terms of oppression by the German occupiers, the Poles were a step above the Greeks or Russians, but far below the French or Dutch. iow, they also suffered, just not at Holocaust levels.

In terms of oppression by the German occupiers, the Poles were a step above the Greeks or Russians

Depends which "Poles" you're talking about. I mean, 10% of the population died in extermination camps.

having been in Poland last year I learned more about the government (not necessarily the current admin, which... ugh) but the structure since WW2. basically there was a government-in-exile situation with a large displaced group that left and, for the most part, didn't return. the government-in-exile had a reconciliation that I'd have to learn more about to understand, but the short version is that the post-Soviet post-Walesa government got the stamp of approval from the exiles and that was that

most of the exiled poles remained in Britain or moved elsewhere in the west post-war. so there's an entire lineage that some Poles trace from the soldiers who left or were imprisoned after the soviet invasion, fought with Britain and the western bloc during the war, and remained in exile until that reconciliation. they don't see any common ground with the government that existed until 1990

Maybe I'm too soft about it, but I don't like to jealously guard my oppression status. I think Poles suffered a good amount under the Nazis. Complicity/responsibility when you are under harsh occupation is a thorny question.

i think you might want to guard your oppression status against these particular ppl

https://t.co/O46oOanrIE pic.twitter.com/Jo4f8ZOXnF

— Ice Cube (@icecube) June 10, 2020

He also tweeted this a few days ago :(

https://www.jns.org/rapper-ice-cube-gets-chilly-reception-over-sharing-anti-semitic-image/

the fuck

I guess that's it for his new movie "Friday Night"