US Politics, November 2019: These people are truly sick.

(Heh, phonemail.)

Does anyone believe America recovers from the Trump years? If you do think that we can right the ship and save our country, please explain your theory.

it's natural to look for logic or coherence in theories, especially when they come from the president of the united states.

but when you give the benefit of the doubt to trump on this, that he actually has some sort of point that he's not expressing clearly, you are playing his game and losing.

Usually conspiracies have some kind of internal coherence, even though they’re based on false assumptions

Aha, but if they planted evidence it was someone from the Trump camp they’d have to turn it over to the FBI, which they didn’t want to do ipso facto, cogito ergo sum, it all makes sense.

But yes, there is no real point in trying to make sense of it.

Does anyone believe America recovers from the Trump years? If you do think that we can right the ship and save our country, please explain your theory.

counteroffer - has america recovered from the 1960s? have we recovered from the civil war? or from slavery? if yes, then why do you think we can't recover this time, and please explain your theory.

give into despair imo

maybe just maybe 2scoops pushes this ukraine bullshit in part to cover for russia cheating for him again in 2020. his weirdo fanbase needs him to give them "plausible" deniability to keep up the MAGA kayfabe routine

counteroffer - has america recovered from the 1960s? have we recovered from the civil war? or from slavery? if yes, then why do you think we can't recover this time, and please explain your theory.

I totally think American can recover, not that that means much. Because in the end the majority of people don't give a shit, barely vote, and completely tune most distractions out because they are working and/or struggling and/or on opioids. I just read that weird memoir "Sounds Like Titanic," about the Ivy League student touring as the pretend violinist for this new age composer/charlatan. It took place while John Kerry was running for president, and when the author noticed their tour dates were overlapping with the Kerry campaign she had to explain to the composer who Kerry was. (The composer, incidentally, also supposedly had never heard Beethoven's Fifth, either.)

I mean, if by "recover" you mean "forget" or "pretend it never happened," then for sure.

if you mean recovers the status quo from the past forty years, I think that's certainly possible

if you mean recovers from the damage we *maybe* had a *slim chance* of undoing before Trump took office, no. That will never happen notwithstanding catastrophe and soup-to-nuts reboot

Apologies for the pessimism Alfred et al, still gonna love it up and fight the good fight but the question was asked

this plus this sounds correct:

i think there’s a case to be made that america is where it is today because it hasn’t recovered from those things tbh
― actor Robert de Niro disguised as an Uzbek homeopath (bizarro gazzara)

+ I mean, if by "recover" you mean "forget" or "pretend it never happened," then for sure.

― Josh in Chicago

The inability to disprove these batshit confusing conspiracy theories is both why they are propagated in the first place and why they don't go away. If someone believes there is a secret high level pedophile ring operating out of a pizza place's basement, how do you ever convince someone to come down from that particular high? There is more proof of bigfoot or the loch ness monster, but no one is storming the PNW or Scotland with automatic weapons in search of The Truth.

Look, we get Trump out of office and then we just...hang a nice tapestry in front of our current era. Something pretty but not too eye-catching, lest we wind up looking directly at it too often. Just, y'know, usher people off in the other direction when they get too close so they don't see all of those other obfuscating tapestries behind it stretching off into the distance, it'll all be fine, just fiiiiiiiine.

Oh fucking lord

POC and queerfolk don't acknowledge "better" or "worse." Life is struggle. Sometimes you win small stakes; often we lose. When were things fucking good?

here we go

maybe just maybe 2scoops pushes this ukraine bullshit in part to cover for russia cheating for him again in 2020. his weirdo fanbase needs him to give them "plausible" deniability to keep up the MAGA kayfabe routine

― reggie (qualmsley), Friday, November 22, 2019 9:36 AM

agree

More importantly, the poll shows more independents now oppose impeachment than support it, a significant change from Emerson's polling in October. The new poll found 49 percent oppose impeachment compared to 34 percent who support it. In October, 48 percent of independents polled supported impeachment, against 39 percent who opposed.

Since October, Emerson has found Trump’s job approval rating jump by 5 points, from 43 percent to 48 percent.

This country is fucked, blow it up and start over

― A True White Kid that can Jump (Granny Dainger), Friday, November 22, 2019 12:25 PM bookmarkflaglink

Emerson is weird, they're a reliable pollster, but this same poll had something like 22% of Republicans supporting impeachment and other polls barely have them in double digits or less.

Also doesn't include this week's revelations so I am watching the polls that come out the next few

When did Happy Days take place? That seemed like a good time. Bobby sox, Al's Diner, anachronistic sideburns.

https://i.imgur.com/KbkOoa6.jpg

https://www.teepublic.com/kids-t-shirt/3894934-life-okay-very-good-carrer-makes-better
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/carrer

Shitmerica

My understanding: The reason Crowdstrike blamed it on Russia was because all the hacking attempt, without fail, took place during certain hours of the day, which they pointed out were office hours in Moscow. That's been public knowledge since summer 2016, so anyone who doubted Russian involvement has always implicitly have to explain away that. That Ukrainians did it, but on Moscow time, makes more sense than the Taibbi / Greenwald strategy of just ignoring it and talking about wmd's instead.

Good point KarlMalone. I actually do think America has been a shit show since the beginning and the whole 'we're the best' thing was really just bravado and military. We have always been horrible, since the very beginning. My heritage is Seminole Indian, so my ancestors suffered at the hands of the grand old USA from the very beginning. So therefore, America has always been broken. I guess the thing I feel is new is the inability for facts to actually make a difference.

So therefore, America has always been broken. I guess the thing I feel is new is the inability for facts to actually make a difference.

yeah, i feel that too. it is hard to reconcile with...just about everything i believed in at one time.

TBF, the landmass now occupied by the USA experienced several pre-USA centuries of absolute bullshit, as well. It's pretty much just an utterly cursed patch of earth.

thanks for the reminder about Sounds Like Titanic, I heard about that earlier this year and it was fascinating. Need to pick that up.

My understanding: The reason Crowdstrike blamed it on Russia was because all the hacking attempt, without fail, took place during certain hours of the day, which they pointed out were office hours in Moscow.

There was definitely way more evidence than that. They tied it to a specific firm!

I mean the warnings were there

https://i.ibb.co/ykVw1dr/3127714-bin.png
image uploader

If someone believes there is a secret high level pedophile ring operating out of a pizza place's basement, how do you ever convince someone to come down from that particular high?

i doubt many of them believe the conspiracy theories they spout. they're disingenuous fuckheads in so many other respects that ascribing good faith to their BS is undeserved. i think they believe that they're saving the US from socialism (and abortion and gay marriage and browning) and they find it imperative to fight that anyway they can . . . which they can't through good faith arguments. who knows how to resolve this except to point out that they're super-effective at what they do (look at the current state of our politics) and that dismissing them as 'stupid' and 'crazy' might be playing into their game of appealing to "conservative" voters insecure about their own intelligence and sanity (and sexuality and white privilege)

i don't think trump or his enablers believe the conspiracy theories they spout.

i think there are some poor and paranoid souls who get taken in by them though. especially pizzagate.

Trump has a pulsing plug of gristle in place of the part of the brain that regulates critical reasoning. He'd believe any conspiracy theory that paints him as its victim.

My understanding: The reason Crowdstrike blamed it on Russia was because all the hacking attempt, without fail, took place during certain hours of the day, which they pointed out were office hours in Moscow.

There was definitely way more evidence than that. They tied it to a specific firm!

― treeship., 22. november 2019 18:59 (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't think there was a firm? Cozy Bear and Fancy Bear, but those were just guesses. These kind of groups aren't exactly public and advertising what they do.

And there was more 'evidence', but most of it could be explained away if you wanted to. It's always been the office hour argument that clinched it for me.

that one doesn't seem convincing at all to me. don't hackers stereotypically have terrible sleep patterns?

sadlol

And there was more 'evidence', but most of it could be explained away if you wanted to. It's always been the office hour argument that clinched it for me.

― Frederik B, Friday, November 22, 2019 10:12 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is hilarious

Trump absolutely believes this theory while also being completely unable to explain it if pressed.

you can trace bot attacks to regions via ASNs

Hmm. Thoughts on the idea of the Democrats just keeping the investigations open, and then not sending letters of impeachment forward for several months?

I don't think this will happen unless they are planning to open some very significant new lines of inquiry in the very near future. Haven't seen anything that indicates this is happening.

the timing of the guilty verdict in the roger stone trial (which potentially implicates trump in perjury -- removing the favorite "conservative" rebuttal to the very reasonable question: why is lying about a blowjob grounds for impeachment, but lying about conspiring with our historic adversary to affect a president election is okay?) coming at the end of Impeachment Week 1 gives me a tiny bit of hope that there's some strategy behind all of this

Stone timing was coincidence, no?

There is a strategy, and Schiff has been terrific. If y'all are disappointed, blame the eighty-plus percent of Republicans who support Dear Leader.

Trump absolutely believes this theory while also being completely unable to explain it if pressed.

Name a single thing Trump believes, of which this is not true.

Whoever mentioned 'kayfabe' upthread is OTM; it's the perfect way to describe the right-wing conspiracy ecosystem. Nobody really believes any of it, but they (meaning everyone, every member of the base, not just the talent and Mr. McMahon) have learned that if they all behave exactly as if they do believe it--and never, ever break character--real leverageable political power can be conjured from thin air

you know, like religion

If y'all are disappointed, blame the eighty-plus percent of Republicans who support Dear Leader.

Well, yeah. The question we are faced with is if 80%+ of the GOP support a lunatic, is there nothing that can be done? I guess we're going to find out.

Perhaps some time could be spent putting the ball in the White House's court, and trying to make a public case that it's Trump's fault that things aren't clearer:

"Mr. President, you and your surrogates complained that hearings were not public. We duly gave you public hearings. You complained that we had not taken a vote. We duly took a vote.

"You complained that the witnesses had no firsthand evidence. We deposed witnesses with firsthand evidence. Indeed, if you had not forbidden your staff from cooperating, we could have deposed witnesses with even better information.

"To date, we have subpoenaed X witnesses who have refused to appear, and issued XX subpoenas for documents that you have refused to provide. The American people want and deserve to know the truth. It is the Congress's right - nay, duty to seek it.

"If you have nothing to hide, Mr. President, then you should not be afraid to permit your staffers to testify. If you have nothing to hide, then you should not be afraid to provide the documents we have legally compelled you to provide.

"If you want this process to be completed swiftly 'for the good of the nation,' then you need to begin participating. If you do not, then you - you, sir - are the reason it is dragging on."

No, of course it won't budge MAGA chuds. But it could be a useful piece of theater.