the cheating thread

this would be thread connections gold if anybody had ILBB on their SNA

as Billy Martin and Gaylord Perry would say, it's only cheating if you get caught

you all read that '51 Giants book, right?

oh my seeking a dodgy edge in baseball, I am getting the vapors

if you've got a runner on second relaying signs, i have no problem with that. non-players using expressly forbidden technology to do so is a different story

i don't watch sports to see who can cheat most cleverly

Astros were 60-21 at home by the way

throwback to '17

https://www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/mlb/2017/9/6/16262734/mlb-punishment-red-sox-sign-stealing-yankees-fines-hurricane-relief-apple-watch

Oh damn, I did not expect this angle:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2862658-report-alex-cora-carlos-beltran-linked-to-astros-sign-stealing-scandal

crazy! wonder of mlb will have the balls to actually dish out actual punishment here.

yep i envision another Mets managerial search

In 1900, Reds shortstop Tommy Corcoran grew concerned about how Phillies third-base coach Petie Chiles planted his foot in the same spot for every pitch at Baker Bowl in Philadelphia. Corcoran ran to the spot and began digging. He found a small wooden box with a buzzer attached to a long wire. The wire led to the Phillies’ clubhouse in centerfield, where Phillies infielder Morgan Murphy was using binoculars to steal the catcher’s signs. Murphy would pass along the signs with a Morse-like code: one buzz for a fastball, two for a curve and three for a changeup. Chiles could feel the buzzes with his foot, and he relayed the message to the hitter what was coming.

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/11/13/houston-astros-sign-stealing

In the first link of the Astros' front office to the sign-stealing scandal, Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to Houston GM Jeff Luhnow, suggested in an email scouts spy on dugouts before the playoffs -- and potentially use cameras to get signs. News: https://t.co/fmr3kB1KhQ

— Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) November 17, 2019

shoulda stayed at Baseball Prospectus I guess

It is pretty hilarious to make a big deal about using all this statistical information in decision making and then turn around and then "just put someone out in centerfield so we can steal some signs" ends up being the topper of the plan. Moneyball indeed.

Cheating is the new market inefficiency!

Wonder if the Astros' tanking years made it so that not winning was not an option and pushed ownership/management to green light this sort of behaviour. I always believed it was going to get ugly when you have 5-6 fanbases that are going realize that 3 seasons of straight tanking is going to be for naught and I circle back to the absolute chaos it would be in Houston if they didn't pull it off. Plus, the whole tanking to be great narrative the Astros/Cubs installed has served MLB so well.

Pro sports in general is pretty much a clown college these days. They could really just get rid of a 1/3 of the teams in each league and probably have a better TV product in the end.

I think pro baseball is a bit of a paper card house as I just don't see how the money adds up anymore in the game. It just does not seem to be that popular yet the money keeps going up, seems like an economic bubble waiting to pop.

https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/2019/08/26/baseball-popularity/38a84a9487efa373cf8bf6b9cf6546https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/2019/08/26/baseball-popularity/38a84a9487efa373cf8bf6b9cf654688fb4703c2/attendance_tg-300.jpg

According to Nielsen ratings:

In 2019, 12 of the 29 United States-based major league teams were the most popular prime-time broadcast in their market.

An additional seven teams ranked in the top three in prime time.

On cable, 24 major league teams ranked first in their market in prime time.

M.L.B. ranked first over all on cable in every major league market in the United States except Miami.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/22/sports/baseball/baseball-popularity-world-series.html

good EW episode w/ Paul Dickson on sign stealing thru the ages

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/effectively-wild-episode-1459-the-history-of-sign-stealing/

Someone edited the 2017 #WorldSeries Wikipedia page and awarded the World Series MVP to....the #Astros centerfield camera man. #MLB #Dodgers pic.twitter.com/S6x8q4R3Fd

— Matt Johnson (@MattJ_Sports) November 21, 2019

like Manfred said, just the Astros!

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2870111-report-2018-world-series-champion-red-sox-used-video-replay-room-to-steal-signs

and further:

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28439945/sources-mlb-decision-discipline-astros

whoa

BREAKING: Per sources, MLB’s penalties for #Astros include:

*One-year suspensions for GM Jeff Luhnow and manager AJ Hinch.

*Losses of 1st and 2nd round draft picks in both 2020 and ‘21.

*A fine of $5M.

Full story and more context with @EvanDrellich: https://t.co/djvKEYFiC7

— Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) January 13, 2020

i'm assuming Luhnow and Hinch can't/won't appeal?

alex cora's gonna get nuked too

and Beltran?

beltran will skate because he was a player at the time, and apparently they're not going after the players

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EOLxKeUXUAADD27?format=jpg&name=small

NICE

🥃🐸 pic.twitter.com/vP5A0s59uT

— Trevor Bauer (@BauerOutage) January 13, 2020

wow. honestly i haven't followed all of this very closely. i knew it was serious, but didn't realize the penalties would be like this.

the question is what if we know about 3 more teams come April

Didn't think Manfred had the stomach for it tbh

losing those draft picks is no joke, even if you're picking 30th

if the red sox investigation uncovers anything at all, i think cora might get a lifetime ban

In no way did I think there'd be a penalty with teeth, wow.

Sweep your own front porch or damage your own dugout monitor.

Jim Crane says Jeff Luhnow and A.J. Hinch have been dismissed.

— Jake Kaplan (@jakemkaplan) January 13, 2020

Wow. Manfred also went after the Astros’ baseball ops culture. He called it "very problematic” and “insular” and "one that valued and rewarded results over other considerations.” I am surprised he would make those points so bluntly in this report.

— Marc Carig (@MarcCarig) January 13, 2020

i knew if i saved this picture on my phone that one day the perfect news cycle would hit pic.twitter.com/tKAuxiZVxB

— ric sanchez (@ricsanchez) January 13, 2020

a lot of people (online) think this still didn't go far enough – but daym if this isn't much harsher than i was expecting!
esp glad Taubman got spanked hard.

can't wait to see what they do to Cora, he may very well get the worst of it.

well Luhnow is likely done in baseball so it's hard to sketch 'worse'

anyone could hire him on, in theory, after his suspension tho.

less likely than Hinch i think

luhnow 'accepts responsibility' but was clueless; it was all the fault of 'lower-level employees' and alex cora

Here is Jeff Luhnow's full statement, his first response to today's news. pic.twitter.com/9AbDFEtkbP

— Jared Diamond (@jareddiamond) January 13, 2020

Happy new year “bro”. I hope this year you find happiness, clearly the most miserable soul on this app. GOD BLESS ❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️❄️ https://t.co/w4kxR4Ejya

— Lance McCullers Jr. (@LMcCullers43) January 13, 2020

^^^ Clevinger & Bauer went after McCullers but shit's all getting deleted, that's one of the few virtues of twitter embeds I guess. ^^^

i think the real lesson we've learned here is: never leave mike fiers off your playoff roster

Didn't expect people to get fired over this. Sean Payton wasn't fired by the Saints (sorry, football mention on a baseball board) in the headhunting scandal.

Luhnow's "I am not a crook" statement is clearly a lie, but obviously he wants to claim plausible deniability when he looks for another job.

Different universe, but in the book I'm reading about the '69 Mets, there's a J.C. Martin-related tangent about how the no-hit White Sox used to a) doctor the field around home plate to deaden balls off the bat, and b) keep all their baseballs in special storage so they'd come out feeling like shot puts.

(I think that may turn up in Ball Four somewhere too--it wasn't a secret.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3LM2iQ8p7A

Carlos Correa has the Jesus lines^

I never in a million years thought I would ever miss Commissioner Bud Selig.

To be clear, I don't miss Commissioner Bud Selig. But I'm not sure he could have handled this crisis any worse.

— Rany Jazayerli (@jazayerli) February 16, 2020

lol astros

Astros pitcher Francis Martes suspended 162 games without pay after testing positive for Boldenone, a performance-enhancing drug. He was previously suspended for a similar violation in March.

— Brian McTaggart (@brianmctaggart) February 17, 2020

Atlanta Braves outfielder Nick Markakis has joined the chorus blasting the Houston Astros over their sign-stealing scandal, telling reporters "every single guy over there needs a beating."

"It's anger," Markakis told reporters of his reaction to the Astros' scandal and the ensuing response. "I feel like every single guy over there needs a beating. It's wrong. They're messing with people's careers."

Markakis did not elaborate on what would constitute a "beating." At least two pitchers have indicated that they would consider throwing at Astros batters, and William Hill sportsbook set an over/under of 83.5 for Houston hit-by-pitches in 2020, a number that would rank as one of the 10 highest in the previous five seasons.

that would be a fun over to put your entire life savings on

lol now lebron is weighing in

Love this Justin Turner quote: “Calling the World Series trophy a piece of metal, I mean, I don’t know if the commissioner has ever won anything in his life. Maybe he hasn’t. But the reason every guy is in this room, the reason every guy is working out all offseason and showing up to camp early and putting in all the time and effort is specifically for that trophy, which, by the way, is called the Commissioner’s Trophy. So for him to devalue it the way he did yesterday tells me how out of touch he is with the players in this game. At this point, the only thing devaluing that trophy is that it says ‘Commissioner’ on it.”

it's pretty crazy to see baseball players talking like this about the league, never seen that before

good turner quote.

i think the players' outspokenness is a combo of (obviously) the scale of what the astros did and their idiotic communications to the public afterward, the upcoming bargaining agreement negotiations, and (going out on a limb here) possibly a greater level of awareness of labor issues in general.

it is pretty wild

KM otm, i think it's just that teams work very hard to implement systems of signals and strategy and even when guys uh "organically" or "artisanally" try to steal a sign here and there they'll get a ball in and high next time up. or god forbid a guy should try to break up a no hitter with a certain type of hit.

also for the Astros to have a team-wide communications system means the gloves are really off now. other teams feel like they were totally duped by these guys.

it's not the conspiracy, it's the coverup

i think it was turner who also mentioned that a) teams having to constantly change signs/have meetings creates pace-of-play issues much bigger than intentional walks, and b) being a pitcher who ends up standing 55 feet away from a hitter who knows what's coming is fucking dangerous

when will the first Astros beanball game occur? Do they play Saturday?

does it count as a beanball if someone in the stands threw it?

home saturday vs the nats
split squad at the nats on sunday
full squad at the tigers on monday

interestingly they do not play the yankees -- guess the atlantic/gulf coasts are largely separate

i missed this

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28730745/frustration-mounts-rob-manfred-edict-protect-astros-beanballs

Some organizations might be aided by their own limitations. The video room at Oakland Coliseum resides a significant distance from the dugout, former Athletics pitcher Brett Anderson mentioned.

“I know the A’s weren’t cheating,” said Anderson, who signed with Milwaukee this winter. “Because, one, I don’t know if they could afford it. And to relay from fucking 300 yards away in the video room? What were we going to do, get some vendor to throw some popcorn up in the air, or something? It’s too fucking far to relay something.”

Anderson joked the only way for Oakland to communicate would be through the ballpark’s decaying infrastructure. “The lights go out, it’s a curveball,” Anderson said. “If there’s a sewage backup, it’s a fastball.”

haha that rules

Off-topic but it was SO WEIRD when both Anderson AND Trevor Cahill came back to the A’s in ‘18

lol xp

eat shit papi

Papi on Mike Fiers: "Why didn't you talk about it during the season when it was going on? Why didn't you say, I don't want to be no part of it? So you're looking like a snitch. Why do you have to talk about it after? Why did nobody say anything while it was going on?"

— Ian Browne (@IanMBrowne) February 20, 2020

stfu & go drink a milkshake papi

papi was a juicer so he's got to stand his ground

he does love baseball cards, though. he loves to sit at the kitchen table by himself and dream of baseball cards.

I agree with this take

https://www.theringer.com/mlb/2020/2/26/21153495/houston-astros-sign-stealing-scandal-baseball-fan-interest

We are hooting and hollering every time a new baseball player goes in on the Astros. We are eager to debate which teams will bring down baseball’s newest menace. Why do you think my editor asked me, a football writer, to write about baseball? Because we can’t stop clicking on articles about baseball!

yeah 100% cosigned here too

no, this is not baseball itself

Baseball now has a team that everybody hates, and what a blessing it is.

i've found the seething bloodlust of the fans on reddit twitter etc mostly irritating and the opposing players leaning into it strikes me as empty theatrics. maybe i'm cynical but i'll never assume a pro athlete is above cheating to get an edge. one of the cool things about wrestling is that if you pay enough attention to all the behind the scenes bullshit you come to learn that even the most beloved faces are complete pieces of shit.

Listen the Red Sox are genuinely evil but I’m not sure I’d go so far as to label them baseball’s Cowboys

don't you have a gio urshela votive candle to be lighting

I probably should be tbh

hviii, u root for baseball's 1977 Oakland Raiders

righteous

BREAKING: #RedSox penalties:

*Loss of 2020 2nd-round pick.

*Ban of replay operator J.T. Watkins through 2020 playoffs and from doing same job in ‘21.

*Ban of Alex Cora through ‘20 playoffs, but only for conduct with #Astros.

Story with @EvanDrellich: https://t.co/6Ysn9hsRFa

— Ken Rosenthal (@Ken_Rosenthal) April 22, 2020

"2020 playoffs"

what a joke

ya, that's pathetic.

So we're supposed to believe that Cora was a key figure in the Astros' cheating scheme, but somehow wasn't fully aware of the cheating happening in Boston that coincidentally started when he arrived?

he was fully reformed!

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/does-cheating-matter/

https://nypost.com/2020/06/13/yankees-up-in-arms-after-judge-orders-to-unseal-mlb-letter/amp/

The Yankees don't want to release the letter, claiming it would cause "significant reputational injury". That is the most pathetic defense ever, why would anyone give AF about that.

I mean seriously, the Astros incurred the stiffest punishment in the history of baseball, but goshdarnit now that people might think a little less of the Yankees organization this has got to stop.

well it's a goddamn golden reputation, you must admit

streisanded lol

Thought the judge in the url referred to Aaron Judge