Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

would anyone on the right make the kind of good faith examination and effort displayed in this thread

this is the exact technique used by the (alt-)right youtube dipshits. state something that their targets disagree with, then construct an incredibly flimsy strawman representing what they supposedly believe and mock it

I know I've used the word "disingenuous" way too many times in the past, but... jesus christ

it sounds like anvil's encountering exactly what happens when someone uses this tactic in conversation as opposed to when delivering a monologue at a camera

Its similar but I don't think my cousin is being disingenuous, these aren't fractious conversations and I don't think he's aware he's doing it. Its more that he's not really capable of hearing (everything has already been decided).

He rarely asks me my opinion, and I've become a lot more reticent in general about saying what I think anyway, but I've found the best way of diffusing this dynamic is to say "I don't know", or "I'm in two minds on that". Then there's not anything to react against, which does stop things going in that direction. Its a pretty good way of being anyway, if someone hasn't asked me my opinion its probably because they don't want it!

Brainworm: The left are organizing for the for the forthcoming election, they are registering hundreds of thousands of students, and will use identity theft to vote as them, along with other forms of voter fraud, on an industrial scale

Me: Huge if true. It sounds like something we should put some money on, if this isn't being reported in the media it won't be reflected in the odds!

Brainworm: ...I don't think its on a wide enough scale to make any difference

they are registering hundreds of thousands of students, and will use identity theft to vote as them

brilliant

I like the betting angle!

The point of the betting angle is it's an attempt to move from an existential or psychological truth to a tangible truth. "If you think x is true, we can make money from that".

It explains how he is able to simultaneously hold two completely contradictory viewpoints, and state both to be true depending on the context

a) There is widespread voting fraud taking place in the next election
b) There isn't widespread voting fraud taking place in the next election

Challenging gets answer a, and agreeing gets answer b. Roll with the premise and see where you both go

The gambling angle has sth to say for it sure, it's related to the "ok, you support Brexit, you will be culpable for what happens due to it, good or bad, now let's not speak about it until then" - but it's just a sticking plaster , if it's a little cut then it can be of use, but not when you have a gaping wound.

But this, and the whole thread aren't related to that, its more about how to deal with friends and family that are brainstormed - or how to deal with fractious relationships, family arguments and the like (particularly at christmas/thanksgiving etc)

The approach is to be less confrontational or oppositional (its counter productive on every level). Its initially hard with people that are actively looking for that confrontation, but definitely good for own mental health when you get hang of it (and you learn more!). Avoiding confrontation per se isn't a good idea, but in this kind of scenario its more productive. I reserve stating my own views for when I am asked. I am never asked

Surely the problem with the betting angle is that "they" will act to suppress any investigation?

That didn't come up. Either the Fraud scheme will be successful (psychological truth), or it won't (tangible truth). Both truths can coexist in the brain, only one truth can exist at the bookies

Guess I am lucky that I don't have any people with horrible views in my family, or close friends for that matter.

I like this as a way of opening up conversation and encouraging a realistic look at probabilities, but then if Labour actually win (sigh, I wish, etc) then the quantum superposition collapses to "it was true all along and I really should have put money on it" and your statement in a way becomes more evidence for the case - or even if they just take a couple of new surprise/studenty seats, then "they really were working on it and they didn't quite pull it off but I could still have put money on those seats if The Man hadn't discouraged me from thinking more about the social geography of my pet theory"

of course I suppose that rationalisation (and worse) will happen anyway so I'm not sure why it feels like being worse off rhetorically

anyway, doing god's work, etc

(PS student theory seems like an interesting inverse of the old rumour that Tory-leaning managers of old folks' homes rounded up postal/proxy votes for all the residents who tbf were probably mostly Tory and some of whom did indeed need assistance to vote, and they would all mysteriously vote Tory - which seems a lot more likely to have actually happened to me, but maybe that's just because I have some Tory-hating brainworms of my own)

Contrast with America, where the Republicans don't need to play around with identity theft, they know basically no educated person under 40 is going to vote for them, so they have instead used voter fraud as a boogeyman to justify disenfranchising tens to hundreds of thousands of legitimate voters at this point. Also closely tied to ugly American racial politics. I don't think I'd be able to let pass any conversation with an American touching on the subject of "voter fraud" without pointing that out.

Oh, but this is UK conservatives clearly taking a page out of the republican's playbook; the identity theft conspiracy theory is also a boogeyman, meanwhile tories push towards making voter registration more difficult so poorer and poc citizens become less likely to vote.

The identity theft thing has got some traction but its not widespread, its still fairly niche in UK and mostly constrained to right wing circles I think

There's something interesting in the minor false flag thing - eg the elderly milkshakes guy that milkshaked himself. Iain Duncan Smith has been sent a dead rat through the post which he posted on twitter. Did 'left wing thugs' send it? Did he concoct it himself? Did supporters do it without his knowledge? Did a prankster do it, or someone for other reasons? And does it really make any difference who sent it? Only one of the above is actually true, but because all are possible, each one is psychologically true, depending on your preference

There is a tweet from a bluetick white tech guy which is doing the rounds.

"Last night, I attended an event hosted by a company I’ve been interviewing with for the last few months.

I was introduced to their Head of Program who, after a few drinks, told me that I’ll never be hired because I’m a white male."

Which of course is getting lots of "never happened" responses. Unmistakeable Jacob Wohl LA hipster coffee spot vibes

a) Head of Program has the brainworm, is anti-diversity and isn't telling bluetick the real policy, but the brain wormed policy he believes is the actual policy. Bluetick is naive and reports to twitter as gospel
b) Bluetick has the brainworm. But why would bluetick flat out lie on twitter and bring negative attention on himself (he's already been removed from one program). Unless on some level he believes it happened.
c) I (and the "Never Happened" twitter mob' ) have the brainworm. It happened as reported.

You can judge for yourself at https://twitter.com/ryannegri

I'm guessing a) with a little bit of b). In other words, an exaggeration of an exaggeration.

tweeting is a symptom of brainworms

How bout d) Head of Program does not have brainworms, but wants to avoid awakwardness of telling Bluetick he's shit at his job/not what they're looking for and knows that getting him to feel like a victim of PC culture is a good way of deflecting.

Funny how the "Head of Progam" will reveal this information after 'a few drinks' but not how many people they've hired recently or the actual ratio of PoC and women. Maybe they need to be on 'a few grams' to get that far in the Q and A.

"FOR MORE INFORMATION, PLEASE INSERT DRUGS NOW"

tweeting is a symptom of brainworms

― jesus is zing (symsymsym)

tweeting is a cause of brainworms

NEW YORK — Four days after pulling off the most high-profile mob killing in decades, Anthony Comello sat down with New York Police Department detectives and told them that the CIA had infiltrated the Mafia. And, he added, the government was spying on him.

He had put his phone in a copper bag to protect it from “satellites,” he told them, and Democratic operatives in Washington were doing business with Joaquín Guzmán Loera, the Mexican drug kingpin known as El Chapo.

In the nine months since that conversation, Comello, 25, has claimed to his lawyer that he killed Francesco “Franky Boy” Cali because the mob boss was part of “the deep state,” a member of a liberal cabal working to undermine President Donald Trump. At one court appearance, Comello scrawled on his hand a symbol and phrases associated with the far-right conspiracy theory “QAnon.”

Now, Comello’s paranoia is being a litigated in a Staten Island court, where he is charged with the murder of Cali. His lawyer has taken the first steps in a legal battle that hinges on a question made for the internet age: At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/does-belief-qanon-legally-insane-131615136.html

tweeting is a symptom of brainworms

― jesus is zing (symsymsym)

tweeting is a cause of brainworms

On the gambling angle, certainly billions have been made shorting GBP off Brexit. My personal benefit has been restricted to cheap region B blu-rays. On US brainworm nonsense, I'm aware of a handful of mining companies whose projects are a go/no-go based on the 2020 election outcome. Obviously private health insurers/hospital companies are in a similar situation. And for some, one can leverage one's bets to the hilt with options.

i need to start buying more R2 stuff from Arrow

On the gambling angle, certainly billions have been made shorting GBP off Brexit. My personal benefit has been restricted to cheap region B blu-rays. On US brainworm nonsense, I'm aware of a handful of mining companies whose projects are a go/no-go based on the 2020 election outcome. Obviously private health insurers/hospital companies are in a similar situation. And for some, one can leverage one's bets to the hilt with options.

― полезный инструмент (Sanpaku)

risk management is an important part of any healthcare entity these days but most of the people i know in the industry these days have concerns which are both more immediate and more far-reaching than who wins in 2020. maybe that's different in the c suites, i don't know!

At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?

This is like asking 'at what point does swallowing water become drinking?'

I drink and I disagree with your analogy

i think it's a good analogy because listening to right-wing conspiracy theorists does in fact drive me to drink

I feel like the difference is much greater than that between avocation and career. Declaring insanity in a criminal trial is careerism at its highest, if you think about it.

Okay then if you strike 'legally' then my analogism is rendered unimpeachable.

Regarding the guy who heard a guy say white males won't get hired. The fascinating/disturbing thing with that is, whatever actually happened, that one tweet will be taken as evidence of a real and widespread trend by people who already believe in it

I suppose an interpretive mistake we might be making is to see these things as claims, when they're more like mantras or rallying cries - I think that's what's going on with the Jeremy Corbyn IRA Terrorist stuff that gets posted to my local fb group. Time and again the post, time and again the refutation, same people keep posting it.

The fascinating/disturbing thing with that is, whatever actually happened, that one tweet will be taken as evidence of a real and widespread trend by people who already believe in it

― Never changed username before (cardamon)

i guess it's disturbing if you still assume that people are fundamentally motivated by logic or reason. that ship sailed so long ago for me.

i don't know. probably the implications of "you just have to assume a lot of people are being fundamentally intellectually dishonest and not just don't want to but are _incapable_ of being any other way" are disturbing, but i'm more disturbed at the increasingly desperate "moderates" trying to treat white bigots in "good faith" despite the mounds of evidence that doing so is, in fact, a bad idea

My cousin went to a 'Brexit Party' last night. I haven't heard directly from him directly, but indirectly I have heard there were Churchill masks, people wearing Union Jack outfits, some comedy, and some singing of world war two songs.

My cousin is possibly now wise to my research and may not give up the details as readily as he would have a year ago

Does your cousin have EU friends who aren't dual UK-EU citizens?

Its possible, but his life and connections are completely alien to me (he earns a lot of money in the city). There's not a great deal of empathy (in the practical sense rather than the moral sense per se). He has said his reason for voting leave is 'trade' but its difficult to get any further than that other than standard Conservative dislike of any form of regulation. I think the existential aspect is difficult for him to express (especially as I don't give him any kind of reaction to bounce off)

I went to a party yesterday thrown by a dual citizen specifically so all of us non-brits could distract ourselves from the thing - like 75% EU citizens in the room - and apparently someone still brought someone who voted leave

oh, also, at the same party a french dude who works in finance told me his boss went around ascertaining everyone's nationalities, then had a big cake made with the flags of all those countries surrounding a giant Union Jack to celebrate Brexit Day (said boss voted leave + tory). Alien is right.

My cousin is possibly now wise to my research and may not give up the details as readily as he would have a year ago

Intrigued as to what makes you think he's aware that the game's afoot.

oh, also, at the same party a french dude who works in finance told me his boss went around ascertaining everyone's nationalities, then had a big cake made with the flags of all those countries surrounding a giant Union Jack to celebrate Brexit Day (said boss voted leave + tory). Alien is right.

jfc

That would've been a nice gesture actually if it was to commiserate Brexit day! And if the boss wasn't an arse.

You know what would've been an even nicer gesture? Not voting Leave.

well yeah, I said if he wasn't an arse

Intrigued as to what makes you think he's aware that the game's afoot.

― Daniel_Rf,

This starts to get back to the deeper, psychological question that the thread is about rather than any specific topic (which is only ever a vehicle). My cousin's lens of 'them and us' over any issue doesn't just invite kickback and reaction, it requires it. And if it doesn't get it...its like dropping a glass on the floor and it not smashing, something has gone wrong.

Its not that he is necessarily looking for a reaction, but reaction provides validation and reassurance (left wing people are supposed to splutter, get emotional, facts don't have feelings etc, or even just argue back). I don't provide my cousin with any of this, I just ask questions, the kind of questions a researcher might ask. For a while this was maybe ok but I think lacks the confidence of ideas if reaction to them isn't there to validate, so possibly feels undermined.

I could be imagining this - we don't really have any disagreements as such because he doesn't ask my opinion and I only ever give my opinion to someone who asks

I think he suspects some kind of trickery, that interactions involving open 'non-judgemental' questions, perversely are more threatening because the guardrail of reaction isn't being provided.

the last two lines in that post are the wrong way around for some reason! I must have left and come back and started writing in the wrong place!

Unfortunately this means I am now less likely to hear about the details of a Brexit party because without the promise of snowflake tears the lure of telling the story is less appealing. I had a pretty good run though before he twigged (if he has twigged).

You get so much more out of people by listening instead of rebutting but maybe eventually the well runs dry