Friend Infected With Right Wing Brain Worms - What to Do?

fuckin' political principles, how do they work

I'm guessing the 'shabbier end of Central Bath' is not remotely shabby.

today i'm feeling like the defining feature of brain worms is clinical Lack of Insight, coupled, in the case of right wing brain worms at least, with a dogged insistence on believing things that are more or less objectively false (this latter is a key thing for me; I often argue with my wife about her essentially nihilist belief that truth doesn't really matter, whereas I am more of the belief that, for instance, not believing in AIDS doesn't give you immunity to it).

I don't think it's unfair or unwarranted to describe such people as, in some sense, psychotic.

nope, anvil has it

i'm not sure you could pay me enough to say what conservatives believe in a form they would agree with

Morrison is an internet specialist rather than a political anorak, which partly explains why, to a political journalist such as myself, his take on current affairs seems so unorthodox. He says one of his central fears about modern Britain is that “they’ve managed to privatise the health service and education system without even discussing it”, but he voted Tory at the last election, partly because he thinks Jeremy Corbyn is “quite an extreme leftwinger”.

That's not unorthodox that's just being an idiot that regurgitates popular opinion.

The binary lens is important too, there's not really a range of views, there are essentially only two. I had this exchange earlier this year

"I don't really think we should be looking to go to war with Iran"
"OK, so you think we should just forget everything and become best mates?"

I was (slightly) irritated at first, why does my cousin have to mischaracterize (or even presume) what I've just said, seconds ago (even after knowing this is how it is). Why jump to the opposite extreme when there are a bunch of positions inbetween "war" and "best buddies". But I've come to realize that the way he sees things, there are only really these two positions. Whatever I might actually say, its really just a variant of "OK, so you think we should just forget everything and become best mates?"

He isn't intentionally mischaracterizing or distorting what I've said, he's already distilled the issue into two views, and if I'm not agreeing with him then I'm in the other category, sort of regardless of what I actually say, which he won't really register

See also

"tbf employment figures reflect the fact graduates are working in wine bars"

RWC: "I don't think theres some huge conspiracy to massage the figures by forcing graduates into working in wine bars"

The issue of a conspiracy arrives from nowhere, I've never mentioned it or even thought it, but I will now have this view attributed regardless.

Everyone will of course no this well in its most famous incarnation "The left are pro open borders"

had that one too in fact. "I'm ok with Extinction Rebellion protesting climate change but demanding open borders is turning people off them"

hmmm, I think a hearty "what the fuck is wrong with you" is in order

i love anvil's analysis in this thread and i think it's pretty otm. "hang on i didn't say that at all" --> brain-worm response: chortle, "well you did, you just don't realize it"

Many minds are very uncomfortable with anything not black and white, either-or, yes or no. By the time they're an adult, it's hopeless to try to change them; black-whitism is their safety blanky.

I sometimes think its all a variant of looking for a book on a bookshelf and not being able to find it because your mind is on the book you're looking for not the books on the shelf.

would anyone on the right make the kind of good faith examination and effort displayed in this thread

this is the exact technique used by the (alt-)right youtube dipshits. state something that their targets disagree with, then construct an incredibly flimsy strawman representing what they supposedly believe and mock it

I know I've used the word "disingenuous" way too many times in the past, but... jesus christ

it sounds like anvil's encountering exactly what happens when someone uses this tactic in conversation as opposed to when delivering a monologue at a camera

Its similar but I don't think my cousin is being disingenuous, these aren't fractious conversations and I don't think he's aware he's doing it. Its more that he's not really capable of hearing (everything has already been decided).

He rarely asks me my opinion, and I've become a lot more reticent in general about saying what I think anyway, but I've found the best way of diffusing this dynamic is to say "I don't know", or "I'm in two minds on that". Then there's not anything to react against, which does stop things going in that direction. Its a pretty good way of being anyway, if someone hasn't asked me my opinion its probably because they don't want it!

Brainworm: The left are organizing for the for the forthcoming election, they are registering hundreds of thousands of students, and will use identity theft to vote as them, along with other forms of voter fraud, on an industrial scale

Me: Huge if true. It sounds like something we should put some money on, if this isn't being reported in the media it won't be reflected in the odds!

Brainworm: ...I don't think its on a wide enough scale to make any difference

they are registering hundreds of thousands of students, and will use identity theft to vote as them

brilliant

I like the betting angle!

The point of the betting angle is it's an attempt to move from an existential or psychological truth to a tangible truth. "If you think x is true, we can make money from that".

It explains how he is able to simultaneously hold two completely contradictory viewpoints, and state both to be true depending on the context

a) There is widespread voting fraud taking place in the next election
b) There isn't widespread voting fraud taking place in the next election

Challenging gets answer a, and agreeing gets answer b. Roll with the premise and see where you both go

The gambling angle has sth to say for it sure, it's related to the "ok, you support Brexit, you will be culpable for what happens due to it, good or bad, now let's not speak about it until then" - but it's just a sticking plaster , if it's a little cut then it can be of use, but not when you have a gaping wound.

But this, and the whole thread aren't related to that, its more about how to deal with friends and family that are brainstormed - or how to deal with fractious relationships, family arguments and the like (particularly at christmas/thanksgiving etc)

The approach is to be less confrontational or oppositional (its counter productive on every level). Its initially hard with people that are actively looking for that confrontation, but definitely good for own mental health when you get hang of it (and you learn more!). Avoiding confrontation per se isn't a good idea, but in this kind of scenario its more productive. I reserve stating my own views for when I am asked. I am never asked

Surely the problem with the betting angle is that "they" will act to suppress any investigation?

That didn't come up. Either the Fraud scheme will be successful (psychological truth), or it won't (tangible truth). Both truths can coexist in the brain, only one truth can exist at the bookies

Guess I am lucky that I don't have any people with horrible views in my family, or close friends for that matter.

I like this as a way of opening up conversation and encouraging a realistic look at probabilities, but then if Labour actually win (sigh, I wish, etc) then the quantum superposition collapses to "it was true all along and I really should have put money on it" and your statement in a way becomes more evidence for the case - or even if they just take a couple of new surprise/studenty seats, then "they really were working on it and they didn't quite pull it off but I could still have put money on those seats if The Man hadn't discouraged me from thinking more about the social geography of my pet theory"

of course I suppose that rationalisation (and worse) will happen anyway so I'm not sure why it feels like being worse off rhetorically

anyway, doing god's work, etc

(PS student theory seems like an interesting inverse of the old rumour that Tory-leaning managers of old folks' homes rounded up postal/proxy votes for all the residents who tbf were probably mostly Tory and some of whom did indeed need assistance to vote, and they would all mysteriously vote Tory - which seems a lot more likely to have actually happened to me, but maybe that's just because I have some Tory-hating brainworms of my own)

Contrast with America, where the Republicans don't need to play around with identity theft, they know basically no educated person under 40 is going to vote for them, so they have instead used voter fraud as a boogeyman to justify disenfranchising tens to hundreds of thousands of legitimate voters at this point. Also closely tied to ugly American racial politics. I don't think I'd be able to let pass any conversation with an American touching on the subject of "voter fraud" without pointing that out.

Oh, but this is UK conservatives clearly taking a page out of the republican's playbook; the identity theft conspiracy theory is also a boogeyman, meanwhile tories push towards making voter registration more difficult so poorer and poc citizens become less likely to vote.

The identity theft thing has got some traction but its not widespread, its still fairly niche in UK and mostly constrained to right wing circles I think

There's something interesting in the minor false flag thing - eg the elderly milkshakes guy that milkshaked himself. Iain Duncan Smith has been sent a dead rat through the post which he posted on twitter. Did 'left wing thugs' send it? Did he concoct it himself? Did supporters do it without his knowledge? Did a prankster do it, or someone for other reasons? And does it really make any difference who sent it? Only one of the above is actually true, but because all are possible, each one is psychologically true, depending on your preference

There is a tweet from a bluetick white tech guy which is doing the rounds.

"Last night, I attended an event hosted by a company I’ve been interviewing with for the last few months.

I was introduced to their Head of Program who, after a few drinks, told me that I’ll never be hired because I’m a white male."

Which of course is getting lots of "never happened" responses. Unmistakeable Jacob Wohl LA hipster coffee spot vibes

a) Head of Program has the brainworm, is anti-diversity and isn't telling bluetick the real policy, but the brain wormed policy he believes is the actual policy. Bluetick is naive and reports to twitter as gospel
b) Bluetick has the brainworm. But why would bluetick flat out lie on twitter and bring negative attention on himself (he's already been removed from one program). Unless on some level he believes it happened.
c) I (and the "Never Happened" twitter mob' ) have the brainworm. It happened as reported.

You can judge for yourself at https://twitter.com/ryannegri

I'm guessing a) with a little bit of b). In other words, an exaggeration of an exaggeration.

tweeting is a symptom of brainworms

How bout d) Head of Program does not have brainworms, but wants to avoid awakwardness of telling Bluetick he's shit at his job/not what they're looking for and knows that getting him to feel like a victim of PC culture is a good way of deflecting.

Funny how the "Head of Progam" will reveal this information after 'a few drinks' but not how many people they've hired recently or the actual ratio of PoC and women. Maybe they need to be on 'a few grams' to get that far in the Q and A.

"FOR MORE INFORMATION, PLEASE INSERT DRUGS NOW"

tweeting is a symptom of brainworms

― jesus is zing (symsymsym)

tweeting is a cause of brainworms

NEW YORK — Four days after pulling off the most high-profile mob killing in decades, Anthony Comello sat down with New York Police Department detectives and told them that the CIA had infiltrated the Mafia. And, he added, the government was spying on him.

He had put his phone in a copper bag to protect it from “satellites,” he told them, and Democratic operatives in Washington were doing business with Joaquín Guzmán Loera, the Mexican drug kingpin known as El Chapo.

In the nine months since that conversation, Comello, 25, has claimed to his lawyer that he killed Francesco “Franky Boy” Cali because the mob boss was part of “the deep state,” a member of a liberal cabal working to undermine President Donald Trump. At one court appearance, Comello scrawled on his hand a symbol and phrases associated with the far-right conspiracy theory “QAnon.”

Now, Comello’s paranoia is being a litigated in a Staten Island court, where he is charged with the murder of Cali. His lawyer has taken the first steps in a legal battle that hinges on a question made for the internet age: At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?

https://www.yahoo.com/news/does-belief-qanon-legally-insane-131615136.html

tweeting is a symptom of brainworms

― jesus is zing (symsymsym)

tweeting is a cause of brainworms

On the gambling angle, certainly billions have been made shorting GBP off Brexit. My personal benefit has been restricted to cheap region B blu-rays. On US brainworm nonsense, I'm aware of a handful of mining companies whose projects are a go/no-go based on the 2020 election outcome. Obviously private health insurers/hospital companies are in a similar situation. And for some, one can leverage one's bets to the hilt with options.

i need to start buying more R2 stuff from Arrow

On the gambling angle, certainly billions have been made shorting GBP off Brexit. My personal benefit has been restricted to cheap region B blu-rays. On US brainworm nonsense, I'm aware of a handful of mining companies whose projects are a go/no-go based on the 2020 election outcome. Obviously private health insurers/hospital companies are in a similar situation. And for some, one can leverage one's bets to the hilt with options.

― полезный инструмент (Sanpaku)

risk management is an important part of any healthcare entity these days but most of the people i know in the industry these days have concerns which are both more immediate and more far-reaching than who wins in 2020. maybe that's different in the c suites, i don't know!

At what point does belief in a far-right conspiracy theory make you legally insane?

This is like asking 'at what point does swallowing water become drinking?'

I drink and I disagree with your analogy

i think it's a good analogy because listening to right-wing conspiracy theorists does in fact drive me to drink

I feel like the difference is much greater than that between avocation and career. Declaring insanity in a criminal trial is careerism at its highest, if you think about it.

Okay then if you strike 'legally' then my analogism is rendered unimpeachable.

Regarding the guy who heard a guy say white males won't get hired. The fascinating/disturbing thing with that is, whatever actually happened, that one tweet will be taken as evidence of a real and widespread trend by people who already believe in it

I suppose an interpretive mistake we might be making is to see these things as claims, when they're more like mantras or rallying cries - I think that's what's going on with the Jeremy Corbyn IRA Terrorist stuff that gets posted to my local fb group. Time and again the post, time and again the refutation, same people keep posting it.