The Sopranos Vs. The Wire

Also, I think the time displacement that someone else mentioned upthread comes into play here -- (that the show happens in the early 2000s, but is based on events from at least 10 years earlier) ... like the part in Season 1 where Lester says, "c'mon, none of you have been in the military?" (when explaining the rope measuring trick) ... thinking that this could be an actual historical anecdote, with the historical Lester having been drafted and served in Vietnam, whereas TV Lester got me wondering, "I wonder how he ended up in the military? Did he enlist to get GI Bill college benefits?"

Isn't there a scene where Bunk explains to Omar why he became a cop? Also, a thing I've got from a lot of what I've read post-blm is that the black neighborhoods aren't anti-cop in theory. These areas are in fact under-policed and over-policed at the same time, and are in desperate need for help getting the rate of violence down.

I think it's a complete fantasy to have a politically progressive show focused on 'the inherent power and violence of policing, and being a cop' since that is in fact not a politically progressive idea. Not really. Art that focuses on that tends to be more right wing, such as The Shield or Training Day. Power fantasies.

Yeah that scene. Not all black ppl who live in black neighborhoods share the same opinions re cops

It strikes me more as a libertarian viewpoint than a progressive one.

Uh it’s a marxist tenet?

Um, not in any Marx I've read? He envisioned a dictatorship of the proletariat. And of course, most socialist societies, or welfare state societies, are quite heavily policed.

Althusser definitely focused on it — police as instruments of the repressive state apparatus.

Althusser had weird views on crime...

I mean ... most if not all of the left in the US sees police as inherently repressive, state sanctioned violence. ... Also most violence directed at people of color

Like ... idk look at the left’s criticism of Kamala Harris for example

Yeah, well, I guess at this point you should have figured out that I don't consider most the US left that progressive...

Jokes aside, I see Althusser in my mind more as a French structuralist like Foucault. And I've always seen that strain as more deconstructionist rather than marxist, located in a specific historical reality after the war in Algeria and may 68. The fight to weaken dominant strains of society more important than traditional 'marxist' battles.

Pretty sure Marx would agree that in a capitalist state, the law enforcement arm of the state is structurally violent against the oppressed proletariat

Especially when they carry guns the purpose of which is to kill people!!

Yes, but that is a problem with the capitalist state. Which, I'd argue, David Simon and The Wire agrees with.

But the show, in focusing on the exceptionalism of “the good ones” is problematic if you maintain that they see it that way

I think the closest it gets to making that criticism is when Prez decides not to be a cop anymore, and Colvin’s speech about “the hammer”

But The Wire might be the tv show in history that focuses the least on 'exceptionalism of “the good ones”'

Anyways, I found an article I read a few days ago, and Simon is quite explicitly anti-capitalist: https://archives.cjr.org/cover_story/secrets_of_the_city.php?page=all

“How can you report on a place like Baltimore, where one of every two black males is without work,” he said, “and in any way regard the economic structure as being viable?”
...
Simon believes that we’ve agreed as a country that our economy can thrive without 8 to 10 percent of the population. Thus, in his view, those without the education and skills to get by are inevitably going to turn to the only viable economy in their neighborhoods—the drug trade. To contain that problem and its attendant violence, he believes, the war on drugs has morphed into a war on the underclass. In both the viable and unviable America, Simon argues, capital is more valued than human lives, whether you’re an expendable tout in a drug organization, a cop trying to put good police work over statistics, a stevedore trying to pull in a full week of union wages, a teacher trying to educate rather than teach to the test, or, as the new season of The Wire argues, a reporter trying to capture the complexity of urban life rather than haul in sound bites.

I am not arguing that he is pro-capitalist. However, there is a difference between the tout in the drug trade and the other examples cited: the tout is likely to end up in jail or get killed... sometimes by cops. The others are likely to be reduced to worse working conditions and potential homelessness... the kid in the drug trade can actually die.

And any of these characters (except for the cop) are way more likely to end up in jail or victims of police violence if they are not white

Yes the tout in the drug trade belongs to the 'unviable America'. I really don't get what you're arguing anymore.

I am trying to figure out how you rationalize that being anti-cop in America is somehow not progressive or leftist

Closest it gets is probably when Prez refuses to co-operate with his old mates in the cops and give them some info on the kids. Still not *particularly* close.

Like there is that scene where the squad is comparing cops to drug crews, and comments that when the drug boy screws up, he can get killed, whereas the consequences for cops are way lighter ... it’s definitely gallows humor, kinda... but definitely played for laughs

It's also like, we're talking about a US tv show (not that uk or elsewhere ones are much, or any, better lol), and the fact that it is way way more sympatheitic to cops than is actually warranted by real life, is still consistent with it being a show that is way way more realistic about cops than virtually any other show :-(

Incessant pro-cop propaganda on tv shows over decades probably more insidious and damaging politically than fox news or uk tabloid press put together

films also i guess

pro cop propaganda in moving images

idk if this used to be a problem w zoetropes

the fact that it is way way more sympatheitic to cops than is actually warranted by real life, is still consistent with it being a show that is way way more realistic about cops than virtually any other show :-(

yeah ... this got me thinking about one of the scenes that I thought was really funny, which is when Santangelo and a few other patrol cops round up a half dozen drug dealers and drop them off in the forest to walk back home ... they don't beat them, they don't shoot them, they don't arrest them ... and my enjoyment of that scene is from the fact that this wouldn't happen in real life. It's a mean trick, but it's not dehumanizing and violent. In real life, these guys would be beat, shot, or incarcerated.

I think this is partly why Season 3 is my favorite -- because it presents this alternate reality (or a glimpse of it)

I am trying to figure out how you rationalize that being anti-cop in America is somehow not progressive or leftist

― sarahell, 13. oktober 2019 00:39 (fifty-eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, we're definitely going around in circles. The Wire is absolutely and by far the tv show ever that is most critical of American policing?

But it's true is not against the principles of solving murders and surveilling people.

Have you seen “When They See Us” ?

Or Seven Seconds?

The Wire is absolutely and by far the tv show ever that is most critical of American policing?

The Shield, which is basically premised around "what if the Rampart scandal never ended", would like a word

When They See Us, sure, but I'd still say five seasons of The Wire makes it a wider criticism.

The Shield, no way. Not only is it about a few bad cops, and has most of the other cops constantly trying to stop them, it also makes sure to show that the illegal actions of Vic Mackey might just be the only way to help with crime today. The only time an extra-legal way of policing actually seems to work on The Wire, it's when Bunny legalizes drugs in season 3.

yeah ... this got me thinking about one of the scenes that I thought was really funny, which is when Santangelo and a few other patrol cops round up a half dozen drug dealers and drop them off in the forest to walk back home ... they don't beat them, they don't shoot them, they don't arrest them ... and my enjoyment of that scene is from the fact that this wouldn't happen in real life. It's a mean trick, but it's not dehumanizing and violent. In real life, these guys would be beat, shot, or incarcerated.

― sarahell, Saturday, 12 October 2019 23:10 (yesterday) link

Given that the shows writers include ex police beat reporters and ex cops I think it’s not unlikely they plucked that incident from real life.

there is no question this actually happened. i remember this happening in 2009 https://www.baltimoresun.com/maryland/baltimore-city/bs-xpm-2011-05-02-bs-md-ci-officer-misconduct-closings-20110502-story.html

Prosecutors said the officers were working overtime near the Gilmore Homes housing complex when they picked up Shawnquin Woodland early in the evening of May 4, 2009. The officers were accused of driving him to a dangerous corner in East Baltimore, and pushing him out of the van while saying, "Thanks for the information."

When the officers later returned to their patrol area, prosecutors say they picked up Michael Johnson Jr. and left him at Patapsco Valley State Park. It was raining, and a Howard County police officer who responded to the boy's call to 911 for help testified he found the teen with no shoes, socks or cellphone.

it is kind of funny (not in a haha way) how these and other incidents are portrayed as joeks for the most part, and the drug dealer characters just deal with it. in real life it's a lot sadder. this one happened post-wire, but it's reasonable to assume it was far from the first time this had happened. also the unit that did this (VCID) was repackaged as GTTF and many of its members are now in federal prison for robbing people.

these and other incidents are portrayed as joeks for the most part, and the drug dealer characters just deal with it.

yeah! you're right! And the casual portrayal and "acceptance" by the drug dealer characters contribute to us seeing it as funny and laughing, whereas, what if the dealers reacted differently, or the show portrayed how it really affected them

Isn't that what season four is? The dealers take it as part of the game (though not always, Bodie throws a punch in season 1. They do react), but then we see how it impacts kids

true -- we do see how it impacts kids -- but it's like, once someone is an adult? Like, think about how jail is depicted. In Season 1, you see it as threatening to Bodie (at that point, still a juvenile), and then Season 4, you see Namond scared of baby booking ... except for Omar almost getting shivved, you don't see a whole lot of trauma ... all the adult males are soldiers who only think about the day they get out. You have Avon playing playstation and getting KFC (?) delivered ... the guard that fucks with Weebay's porn and fish is about the most traumatic thing you see. Cutty seems pretty well adjusted psychologically after doing 15 years. ... Compare this to how prison is depicted in OZ.

I feel like you're missing the point of both The Wire and Oz with that comparison...

D'Angelo gets killed in prison as well, btw

As does a whole bunch of people when Avon taints the dope. But that isn't really the point. The point is, as you say, that the people we follow are soldiers, who are protected inside. The whole point of Emerald City is that there is no one dominant faction, making them all fight for power all the time.

I'm sorry for being a dick about this, btw. I get way too excited when I watch The Wire. On penultimate episode, so good. MY NAME IS MY NAME!

Uh dude, not to put too fine a point on it, but would you just stop being condescending.

that's a very big ask!

Like think about all the issues the inmates in OZ had over the course of the show (outside of the factional power struggle and violence), what of this do we see in the Wire?