Sonic Youth: Classic or Dud/S&D?

The Kim sings on Dirty sound too much like she's puking into the microphone.

*songs

9 minutes of goodness, what more can you ask for?

A shorter album produced by Jake.

You can think an album is too long without using it as the sole measure of quality

(This food is too salty. What, so saltiness is your measure of how good good is?)

the tipping point from which a meal changes from tasty to oversalted is more or less the same for most people. but length as criterion to judge music is very subjective, what is too long depends completely on the listener.

[returns back to listening to the zero years poll tracks]

Songs I like on Dirty: "Theresa's Sound-World," "Youth Against Fascism," "Purr," "Wish Fulfillment," "Swimsuit Issue," 'JC," "Chapel Hill," "Drunken Butterfly," "Sugar Kane."

xp. that are quite a lot of songs. but that means you only like raisins in your cake. i think there also should be not so good songs on albums to make the other ones stand out even more.

anyways length as a reproach in respect to dirty is quite bizarre. the songs on dirty are very succinct in comparison to more prog-rock works of sonic youth like the diamond sea (bad example as i like it but i think you get the gist) e.g. and other meandering tracks. it does not make sense to me. dirty is quite diversified which can't be said of all of sonic youth's output.

i think i meant cherry-picking, in german it is raisin-picking...

Dirty reportedly would have been one track longer, but they had to edit for length, and Lee almost quit the band over them axing his song.

"Why are you so mean-o?"

Just finished listening to the Kim album. I feel like if I listen to it again, a few things might pop out, but overall it's like she's opted for icon-hood over progress. Like, the guy who worked on the album with her put some tracks together and she just Kim Gordon-ed over the top of them for a couple of minutes each. The lyrics are so oblique they're forgettable, they're like phrases that slide through your brain while you're dreaming and when you wake up they're gone. I do like that she called a song "Murdered Out," because it amuses me that a 66-year-old woman knows that; it's like when William Gibson drops some bit of Tokyo street culture into a line of dialogue and then never mentions it again. The first track, which sounds like a collaboration with Prurient, and the last one, which has the drifting hazy quality of my favorite SY tracks with her (and Body/Head), were my favorites. And the giant bass and the drum machine on "Murdered Out" sound almost like Godflesh. I'll give it another listen in a few days, maybe, if I can squeeze it in between things I need to listen to for assignments.

I most recently encountered Kim onstage at the Greek Theatre, joining opening act Malkmus/Jicks for a song, and wearing a BETO t-shirt (this was leading up to last year’s midterms).

re: album length vs food, wouldn’t the analogy be closer to “the food here is great but the portions are huge; I walk out feeling overstuffed if I try to eat everything on the plate”?

yes

I do find with that album, much as I love it, I have to take the last few songs home in a doggy bag

I dig this aesthetic move but none of these songs really stick.

This is ridiculous; there’s no justification for Dirty - a pop/rock album with noise elements essentially tacked on as if its something they *should* do - being nearly 60 minutes long.

And I like Dirty...but there’s a 40-45 min classic in there somewhere

I love all of Dirty and will fight you in the mud for those extra 15 minutes

best production job they ever had

Martin Bisi reverb 4 lyfe

The guitars on "Disappearer" are so beautiful. I realize in retrospect that I thought their records kept sounding better up through Daydream Nation, but wasn't really sure that improvement continued on their first couple of Geffen albums. Maybe it was the vinyl pressing of Goo, I don't know, sounds fantastic just streaming whatever version they have out there now.

Sounds like Daydream Nation with better sound.

Always really liked that one. I still have Goo on cassette, which still sounds great to me.

yeah I heard a lot of shit about the Sansano / St Germain production back in the day but it just sounds like someone finally captured the grandeur of their sound. Sure Sister has its tubed-out charms, but Dirty Boots, Disappearer, Mildred Pierce etc sound glacial and immense.

re: Dirty, the Untouchables cover is disposable and would've been better relegated to a b-side.

like Lee, I can't believe they chose that over "Genetic".

Sonic Youth....rules

I love all of Dirty and will fight you in the mud for those extra 15 minutes

re: Dirty, the Untouchables cover is disposable and would've been better relegated to a b-side.

I love all of Dirty and will fight you in the mud for those extra 15 minutes

Last night I dreamed I kissed Neil Young
If I was a boy I guess it would be fun

Nobody cares about 100% but 100% was 100% the perfect fuck you noise attitude song that I wanted to be as a teenager.

https://youtu.be/IASWmYTq6Xo

_ re: Dirty, the Untouchables cover is disposable and would've been better relegated to a b-side._

this is one of the wrongest sentences i have ever parsed in my life. that cover is one of the most ass-kicking songs in the world, dirty without it is unthinkable.

like Lee, I can't believe they chose that over "Genetic"

Wish Fulfillment is Lee.

sorry, you are right.

Zero reasons why this shouldn’t be 40 mins yet

i have said why nic fit and crème brûlée cannot be cut. let's turn this around. tell me the songs you want to get rid of and i tell you the reasons why they belong on the album. actually the answer is simple, there is not one weak track here. btw i still haven't heard any plausible argument why dirty shouldn't last 59 mins.

even world-class sourpuss alex in mainhattan is on board, do you see how futile this resistance to the dirty omnibus is going to be!!!

It was my first SY album and I love it and am “eh” in equal measure, but I’m behind you.
― circa1916, Sunday, October 13, 2019 1:41 AM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Basically posting to say a) I kinda love the path this thread has taken and b) I am 100% with circa1916 on this one. Still have vivid memories of seeing ads for this and buying it at 15 years old or whenever and not really understanding what it meant historically/their catalogue etc and loving it but .... even then thinking, holy fuck, this record goes on forevvvvvvvvvver. No other music I was listening to then stands out in memory in overstaying its welcome this way even though I adored it.

It's been a pretty long time since I've listened to this record - any of it - but then ditto EJSTNS/Goo/Evol and a few others probably.

What to cut from Dirty? No idea, but here's what is strong/indispensible in my memory:

Swimsuit Issue
Drunken Butterfly
Shoot
Sugar Kane
Youth Against Fascism
Nic Fit
JC
Crème Brûlée

Also, Kim KILLED IT on this LP.

ok let's see what is missing there.

• 100%: a perfect opener which sets the tone of the album with that beautiful choir of guitar distortion, absolutely indispensable, leaving it off the album would be liking cutting off its' head
• theresa's sound-world: an almost dreamy start, and then we take off to noisy wonderlsnd, you are right it is quite longish but it pays off to stay tuned until the end.
• wish fulfillment: the only ranaldo contribution, the sound experiments of the second guitar in the background are pure bliss. listen to this on headphones and you will rethink your decision to scrap it.
• orange rolls, angel's spit: this must be the song where kim sings as if she vomits into the mike as someone put it upthread. i love her shout, she really is evil here, and the following lalalalalalala's, the track is quite experimental and free-form, essential stuff.
• on the strip: gorgeous tune, wonderful, sexy singing by kim and an intricate net of guitar textures. cutting this would be like abolishing heaven. the middle part where they jam seems a little superfluous but it isn't. it gives the listener some time to breathe.
• chapel hill: a solid, bass dominated and almost slow song, i love it as again it has got a dreamy quality but then destroys expectations and speeds up nicely in the second half before finishing on a peaceful note.
• purr: i quite like this rather conventional song but i could actually live without it. you would gain a little more than 4 minutes, not really worth it, i think.

Funny story: this was the first SY album I ever heard and it blew my mind. However, what I heard was taped onto one side of a C90 and so only consisted of the first 45m of the album. I was surprised when I got the CD and there were all these additional songs.

I had that with Daydream Nation - I never heard 'Exterminator Jr.' until I got the CD years later.

Anyway, the problem with Dirty is the sequencing, not the length. 'Purr' and 'Creme Brulee' feel like bonus tracks after 'JC', which would have been the perfect album closer.

Might be its own thread but when my friend gave me a copy of the Beatles' White Album it was missing "Yer Blues" (I guess she hated it?). Very weird hearing this missing track when I bought the album years later, like a bonus track placed at track 2

Back on SY: I'd definitely find room for "Genetic" on Dirty, though I have no clue what I'd cut!

alex otm, none of the songs on Dirty can be cut.

re: Genetic, there's a POLL for that.

Dirty was my first SY album but never a favorite. That it seems overlong is odd given that there are several SY albums that are longer but arguably benefit from it (Daydream Nation, Washing Machine, A Thousand Leaves). I'd attribute it to the relative lack of sprawl on Dirty, which feels tight and constrained. Despite "Theresa's Sound World" and "Wish Fulfillment," there isn't much breathing space/interiority on Dirty — those Mike Kelley stuffed animals tear away at bedroom secrets. Experimental Jet Set goes even further in terms of constraint, but there the songs approach miniatures and are more abstracted and dreamlike; Goo is more pure fun and less relentless. The relentlessness I think serves Dirty as a political record; speaking for myself, if I find the experience exhausting it may probably bespeak a certain discomfort with the "work" of politics. (The exclusion of "Genetic," and Lee nearly leaving the band because of it, seems a mark of its political character as well.)

Tbh I'd probably get rid of Nic Fit and Creme Brulee, though I'd be bummed to lose that great couplet: "last night I dreamed I kissed Neil Young/if I was a boy yeah it would be fun" xp

relative lack of sprawl on Dirty, which feels tight and constrained

I think there is some confusion, I do think "Nic Fit" is a fantastic song, but the Sonic Youth cover is watered down & at a middle aged friendly tempo which shows the band's weakness (no offense to Steve Shelley & KimG, but that's probably the fastest they've ever attempted to play and it shows lol).

And reading some of the responses upthread, it may be may have been many people's first exposure to hardcore? So I guess that may be a net positive.