C/D: Friends with Babies

Yeah, the child-free posters appear to formed a mistaken view of parenthood as a decade or two of anhedonic purgatory. For my part, I must say it's by far the most rewarding and fun experience I've ever had. Yes, you certainly see less of the people with whom you socialized before you procreated - but, on the other hand, a whole new world of companionship and emotion is opened up to you. (To quote J.F. Sebastian, "These are my friends. I made 'em!")

― Vast Halo

Not having kids boils down to a couple things for me:

* Growing up was hell for me. Now that I'm 43 I'm getting closer to the point where I feel I wouldn't be as shitty a parent as my parents were, but that's a very recent thing and I've made my peace with it. My wife also had a hard childhood and does not want children either.

* I have a hard time believing any children of mine would have a better or easier life than I have had.

* Certainly until a couple years ago I didn't have any belief that I would ever be able to afford to raise a child.

* I'm told that parenthood is an incredibly rewarding experience and, also, that there is no pain in life like seeing your child suffer, and no fear like the fear of seeing your child hurt. I know which of those things counts more to me.

* Certain aspects of my long-term gender dysphoria have meant that I haven't really have the practical ability to reproduce anyway. My wife also has genetic factors that mean that she would be an extremely high-risk pregnancy. Oh yeah people will always tell you to adopt. Most of the people who will tell you that haven't.

I think it's fantastic that people have kids and I've gone through enough challenging life situations that I'm not going to look down on anybody for being able to go through a couple years of sleepless nights. Decades of anhedonic purgatory? Hell, I can relate to that and I don't even have kids to show for it.

Most of my friends don't have kids. Two of my best friends had two kids two years apart. I've got to watch both grow up from birth.

When the oldest one, now 4, said my name for the first time I teared up a little. I adore them.

Tho my friends joke that my hangouts are just an excuse to see the kids.

(these are two friends who are married to each other obv)

So classic

My two babies are now both in university, years 1 and 2.

Curiously, I don't have lots of friends with children. My closest friends outside the family are kidless. I'm not sure what to make of that. Maybe I'm attracted to "free radicals" so to speak.

Parenthood felt like a rigorous test right through early childhood, but then things started easing up. Once my kids were in high school their moods leveled off somewhat and the house opened up. It became a very popular hangout (and even campsite from time to time) for a lot of their friends. There was a sense of constant movement, in and out; and new faces at dinnertime. Our social gatherings (usually cookouts) increasingly became all-ages affairs.

I've been reading and posting on ilx for almost as long as I've been a father, I reckon.

I'm not sure what's next.

Adopting An ILXor, probably.

Gradual slide into senescence.

Lol

https://66.media.tumblr.com/8fc4b103918c90fa3d9bce007e529d1d/tumblr_pnyp9hdl761ro8ysbo1_500.gif

Wait...

https://media.tenor.com/images/d85d9f198d6b18d52267ef60314e7220/tenor.gif

sometimes I think I want to have kids and sometimes I think I couldn't imagine anything worse, and either way it doesn't matter - as a gay man I would have to adopt and I can't imagine that my lack of financial security or mental stability would make me a prime candidate. I see a lot of really bad parenting* in the wild and it really depresses me.

I think when you live on the LGBTQ+ spectrum you spend a lot more time trying to figure out who you are/escaping what people think you should be. We're brought up through societal pressures to believe you should want a good job and a nice house so you can raise a family. But if you're not going to have that family - if natural conception just isn't going to happen in your life - then do you really need that house/savings/stability? And if you don't need it, then why not just keep using your time and money to enjoy being responsibility-free? It's something I struggle with. I see my friends have babies and I feel pangs of envy and guilt about how I'm nowhere near ready for it and I'm barely qualifying as an adult. Then I remember that I choose to live the way I do - I like having disposable income for gigs and wine and no committments on a weekday night.

*we don't need to go into a definition of what that means, let's just assume we all know what that can look like instead of debates where people bring up exceptional exoneratory circumstances

* I'm told that parenthood is an incredibly rewarding experience and, also, that there is no pain in life like seeing your child suffer, and no fear like the fear of seeing your child hurt. I know which of those things counts more to me.

pretty much. one thing about parenthood is that in a sense it adds an extra layer of anxiety to your life that won't go away until the day you die. even something simple like going to a playground is full of emotion - it's so nice to watch them play and explore but at the same time you're envisioning all the different ways they could get hurt. luckily once they hit 4 or so they're a lot less wobbly & generally know what they can and can't do. plus kids' bodies are pretty resilient. my two are constantly doing Stone Cold Stunners to each other and somehow no ones gotten hurt...yet

I bet you're doing a Jim Ross impression at the playground

well the little one did suplex the big one off the bed yesterday, one of those moments where your heart skips a beat while you wait for one of 'em to start crying, and then when they don't you're just pissed you didn't film it

BAHGAWD HE IS BROKEN IN HALF

scuse me. I do not have kids and I thought this thread was a joke at first. I've joked with my busy kid having friends "you didn't consider me at all in this decision did you?" cuz uh... yeah, why would they?

I'm so lonely

luckily once they hit 4 or so they're a lot less wobbly & generally know what they can and can't do.

Wait'll they hit 14. It has opened up a whole new world of things my kid is wobbly about and doesn't know that he can and can't do.

one thing about parenthood is that in a sense it adds an extra layer of anxiety to your life that won't go away until the day you die

Every time I've felt anxious about something to do with my son I always think "I'll get used to this." And I do get used to it. And then nearly immediately find a new thing to get anxious about. I'm not sure when I will die so I can get some relief but I suspect I have a long time to go

My mom always told me having a child (me) felt like having a cake in the oven 24/7. Always baking, must remain vigilant.
She was not a baker and I don’t remember her ever making a cake EVER so I always figured this was not a favorable comparison.

tbf, children are rather like cakes. In that they can only be in a 350-degree oven for a little while without becoming unpleasantly burnt.

kids ime are far more resilient than baked goods

you can give a cake internet access without worrying about it being radicalised into a little fucker

i don't know man

https://images.forwardcdn.com/image/300x225/center/images/cropped/swastika-cake-1564160154.png

fuck

a cake can't put another cake in the oven and burn it to a crisp

parenting is the hardest thing i've ever done. i cannot really overstate how much work it is. i don't know if my experience is different from most -- both my kids have disabilities & various differences that are can be challenging sometimes because of the intensity of certain associated experiences (e.g. when my autistic son has a meltdown, which happens almost daily)) and other times because their needs are not as easily accommodated and require more time & effort (e.g. i drive an hour every morning across the city so that my son can go to a school that works for autistic kids, we see a bunch of medical and developmental specialists, we have to coordinate various services and therapies) -- but from 5am until 8pm the demands are immediate and unrelenting. there is no downtime. they require constant supervision. the emotional and physical drain on everybody is immense. the volume level is sometimes the hardest to handle above all other challenges, and it can be intense whether or not they are unhappy -- sometimes the most difficult moments to reach them are when they are ecstatic with excitement and energy, running around the house screaming and jumping. they have their own sensitivity to noise, so we own multiple pairs of noise-cancelling headphones, but i find myself wearing the headphones often.

it is immensely rewarding, too. i feel happiest when i am present emotionally with them and they see me & i see them. sustaining those moments requires a daily regimen of care and self-care, and honestly any lapse in that regimen and i can easily fall into a place of resentment and regret for having kids. the demands, responsibilities, and obligations sometimes feel like too much to handle, and i often envy those who are free from them.

i think because of that stress i value my friendships w/ other parents, but also with my childless friends. i don't want my existence and relationships to be built entirely on the premise of being a parent, so it has never bothered me when my childless friends take little interest in my kids. it is validating when they do, of course, after all i spend so much time raising these kids that it'd be weird if they didn't occassionally ask about it, but i really enjoy going out with them and feeling free from my kids and from being a parent for a few hours. i've found that to be really necessary.

Respect and strength to you, marcos.

I love ilxor threads about children

my local friends I spend time with regularly have no kids and from what I know most of them probably never will.

the couple I know locally who had a kid I am not close to so I can't really attribute the fact that I don't see them to their child

anyway children should be gestated by paid workers and raised communally

take it to the trolling thread, buddy

who's trolling

Respect and strength to you, marcos.

― Saint Buffy (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, October 10, 2019 1:35 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

you too, i know we are in a similar boat!

I'll post this opinion I genuinely hold in as many threads as it's relevant

relevance is totally subjective -- you should post it in more threads

surrogacy seems like a shitty job

parenting is the hardest thing i've ever done. i cannot really overstate how much work it is. i don't know if my experience is different from most -- both my kids have disabilities

ime parenting a child with disabilities is exactly the same as parenting any other child, except more so. the challenges are all similar in kind to other parenting, but the needs are greatly enlarged and the inner resources you must bring to bear are enlarged proportionately. a lot of the time you're running on sheer will and the inability to imagine any better way forward. Many days I think of Beckett's 'I cannot continue. I shall continue'.

but this thread is supposed to be about how the table is the table has perverse friends who ruined his life by having children. we do him a disservice by derailing it.

it's "I can't go on, I'll go on".

no misquoting big boy beckett on my watch

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/957/652/398.jpeg

I've said this before but. Every human achievement that you value (every album and song and symphony, every book and painting, every movie, every protest movement and instance of social justice activism) came from someone who was once a baby and therefore must have had parents.

So if you love music (the ostensible originating reason for this site), you kinda at least have to accept the premise of babies? I think?

I don't mean that you need to enjoy specific babies or the act of holding them and changing them and stuff, but surely you can kinda see the connection between parents, babies, and the stuff you value?

(Of course, I put this forward knowing that the converse is true: villains and terrible music and bad movies ALSO come from people who were once babies, but it becomes very difficult to quantify the cost/benefit ratio. If you want to live at all in a comprehensible fashion, though, you at least have to try.)

ty. my apologies to Big Sam

Thank you for your service, jim.

"e.g. when my autistic son has a meltdown, which happens almost daily"

I spent a long time in that place and can be a very lonely and tough place to be, thank god he is much calmer now at the age of 17 because dealing with that every day can be completely exhausting.

So if you love music (the ostensible originating reason for this site), you kinda at least have to accept the premise of babies? I think?

You also have to accept the premise of foul smelling feces ... you can accept these premises but also want to avoid them as much as possible.

Surprised no one has mentioned that just accepting one's own existence requires accepting the existence of babies.

yes, but enough ppl on ilx hate themselves so ...

i am so, so delighted by a big sam reference itt

There is a certain sonic frequency above which I don't like hearing the human voice ... unless it's like, someone singing opera. Once a child's voice descends below that frequency/pitch, I am okay spending time in their presence.

otmfm, that shriek sends me running. even the gurgles of a happy baby send me running because i know that shriek is literally 2 minutes away.

yes, but enough ppl on ilx hate themselves so …

yeah p sure this was where I found out that anyone who had kids after the year 1980 is probably a sociopath

2020 Democratic presidential primary

i live in the breediest breedery in the united states, utah, and i'm surrounded by people who dedicate their entire lives to the importance of breeding and have formed a religious cult for furthering that mindset. even not in utah it's still pretty much the majoritarian default. so i for one am very grateful for (a tiny handful) of voices here that (occasionally) push back and make the ethical case for not-breeding and argue that it's good, actually, because the overwhelming current of the mainstream can make it difficult to keep upright in the eddy of not-breeding without some additional strength and support.