Nick Cave : Classic or Dud ?

tried cutting it down to five tracks because i found the first disc to be a bit too meandering and found it to be completely transcendent like this:

Ghosteen
Bright Horses
Night Raid
Galleon Ship
Hollywood

― ufo, Friday, October 4, 2019 6:09 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

i respect this reduction bc these are all the songs that blew my mind on contact, but i think i’d still miss the others particularly “spinning song” and “leviathan”

my initial read on this album still feels correct, so good job me. "Bright Horses" got me right in the gut on second listen and I suspect I'll feel that way about much of this soon

Fried Egg Sandwich at 6:15 4 Oct 19

Worthy but tedious album. A real slog to get through. I'm sure the Guardian will love it and Nick's new legion of hipster fans and edgy moms will be all over it, but I miss the Bad Seeds as a band and the excitement and energy from their old albums.

yeah really sad to see Nick Cave appealing to hipsters as opposed to his old working class, salt of the Earth, sports bar crowd cranking The Good Son from their Ford F150s

on first listen, I don't like it as much as Skeleton Tree but feels like something that could grow with further listens

I absolutely love Push the Sky Away but always seems to get a lukewarm response on ILM

“edgy moms” jfc

sheesh, moms are the worst

i don't know if i think the whole is better than skeleton tree but i'm pretty sure part 2 is the best thing he's done this decade

i'm pretty sure part 2 is the best thing he's done this decade

with the analogue synths and the choir sounds... it's like he's singing over a Kosmische album from the late 70s sometimes

the second disc is absolutely better than push the sky away and i say this as a big fan of that album

weirdly what this album reminds me the most of is magical cloudz which i never really expected from a nick cave record

haven't fully digested it but surprised anybody would prefer it to the last two. It's certainly beautiful and but seems to be a bit too soundtracky (and not unlike some of Cave and Ellis's soundtracks) and a bit too lacking in variety and tension? And surprised anybody would say Skeleton Tree is all tension and no release, when the penultimate song Distant Sky is perhaps the most beautiful recording of the last 10 years.

for me it's the most interesting thing he's done, or at least the thing i like the most since Abattoir Blues. probably because some of the first disc definitely sounds influenced by mid 90s Current 93.

the opening of the title track feels very "warszawa" to me

the whole album is continuing to grow on me, i think i was caught off-guard by it opening with "spinning song" which is one of the most minimal and skeleton tree-like tracks, but i even like that a lot now. "ghosteen speaks" is the only one i haven't gotten into yet, it's still quite formless and is mostly synth drones plus backing vocals "wwhoaaaaaaaaa" over and over

with the analogue synths and the choir sounds... it's like he's singing over a Kosmische album from the late 70s sometimes

I'm sold on that!

Or like a later Alice Coltrane record, which both he & esp Ellis are noted fans of

Hmm, thinking of this in terms of one of Alice Coltrane's ashram cassettes helps. My first listen found it too tract-like, too dependent on the words to click. But framing it as devotional pondering may help.

https://i.imgur.com/REug3mx.jpg

Nick what do you think Antifa is fighting for

http://www.theredhandfiles.com/why-do-you-write/

Or against, rather

nick: "self-righteous belief and the suppression of contrary systems of thought" is bad. "lack of humility" is bad. "paternalistic and doctrinal sureness" is bad.

also nick: people who are religious and believe in god are indisputably wrong and should probably be shunned.

i couldn't care less if people believe in god but i found his antifa commments quite shocking.

No one even brought up Antifa, he could have left it at his thoughts on woke culture, which I disagree with but whatever, old white dudes gonna old white dude

whatever, old white dudes gonna old white dude

bravo

I was at his Sunday 'Conversations...' show here in SF -- which was quite good -- and he did talk about free speech as such in the context of his version of "Stagger Lee" but didn't go THAT far, let's say. But I did think "Hmm..." when I heard it.

Bunch of UK and European dates announced for next year:

https://www.nickcave.com/tour-dates/

Lotte Lehmann, the German soprano, had this line about how 'only that is convincing which is truly felt' and as I listen to Ghosteen I'm tempted to reverse it: clearly I'm meant to feel something, but that putative emotion is buried deep in layers upon layers of smug theatrical artifice. I don't buy his incantations in the least, and all I'm left with as a newcomer to his oeuvre is the man's Reputation.

I think that's fair, or at least not unfair. Context carries a lot of weight on this album. Getting into Cave via this album would be a little like diving into Autechre and starting with "All End."

He's not even that great in concert these days. Around the time of Henry's Dream and Let Love In the concerts were extraordinary, the Bad Seeds were such a force back then. Some of the best live shows I ever saw. I find Cave's shows quite boring now.

Having gone to one of the Skeleton Tree arena shows it sort of worked, and I enjoyed it, but I'm not sure I have the urge to go this time round.

OTM about the Henry's Dream shows, they were the ones with the Mercy Seat endurathon version iirc.

I'm too much of a johnny-come-lately to have seen him around that time, but the Skeleton Tree shows were incredible for me, just this total communal love-fest.

the Push the Sky Away tour was fucking amazing

I don't dig the album, but I'd really recommend seeing Once More With Feeling before you dismiss it all as smug showmanship

tbh I think he's a bit lost but for understandable reasons

Yeah, I saw Once More With Feeling. In 3D! It was okay. Don't know if it was a necessary film to make, I just felt a bit sad after I saw it and wished the album was better. The Road To God Knows Where is good if you've not seen it.

Ellis is a weak link for me, I just don't like what he brings to the band. Sonically I find him a real turn off.

Lately I might agree with that. He's a wild man, so it's kind of too bad these days he's relegated to playing little micro synths or whatever. But when he picks up his violin or a guitar he's pretty rocking.

I would agree with most of that, I like Skeleton Tree more than you but this isn't his best era for sure

Ellis can be so great, Dirty Three was so amazing live and he was great on the Push tour

but yeah this new one reminds me a bit of when I go to Guitar Center to get strings on sale and end up fucking around with doing droney pads on some display synth for fifteen minutes

Can't remember which tour (Abattoir Blues possibly) but I saw The Dirty Three support the Bad Seeds once, Warren was absolutely amazing then. He played in the Bad Seeds the same night too. Crazy energy.

I wonder how many people who put Ghosteen in their albums of the year lists will be listening to it in one, five, ten years? It just doesn't feel like an album to be listened to much for me. I could always go back to Let Love In because it's such a stonkingly good, end-to-end killer record, but these last three albums just don't have that pull. They feel like worthy pieces of art that were important for Nick to make, but as music albums, not so compelling.

That fucking awful Bunny Munro book (I remember Q describing it as "like being hit over the head with a squeaky sex toy) was the beginning of a sharp artistic downward trend for Cave.

it'll be in my albums of the year list and i probably will be listening to it occasionally for the next 10 years, it's really that gorgeous

i understand why the change in sound may not really interest long-time fans at all though

I wonder how many people who put Ghosteen in their albums of the year lists will be listening to it in one, five, ten years?

incredibly boring way of thinking about music ahoy

Boring or not, I think it's not a totally unreasonable stance/standard. The broader question is, is it an album that you'd put into regular circulation as something you'd reach for before another album, either by the same artist or not? I don't know. I think of something like "Vulnicura" by Bjork, which I really liked at the time but haven't listened to since (and I never heard her most recent album). Or the second Bon Iver album, which I recall being kind of cool, but which I haven't felt the need to listen to since its release as well. I mean, there are only so many hours in the day. There are something like 20 Nick Cave albums at this time, that could be all I listened to, but if I was jonesin' for Nick Cave I'm not sure what it would take for me to grab the new one (or any of the recent ones) over the 5 or so I like a lot more.

I could always go back to Let Love In because it's such a stonkingly good, end-to-end killer record, but these last three albums just don't have that pull.

I feel the same way, Eggsy. As you said, Nick *had* to make them, and I respect that and find things to love on all of them, but they're so laden with context for me that they're hard to revisit. "Ghosteen" just slays me. As a parent, it's one of your my nightmares writ large.

Some not particularly coherent thoughts that I might come back to:

a) I guess he has to make the music he has to make, at this point.

b) I guess he's in a position (financially, whatever) that he can make the records he needs to make.

c) I don't like the idea of "Good music will be listened to in the future". You can play a record once and it change your life. There's no expectation that you watch a good film multiple times, I don't think.

this new one reminds me a bit of when I go to Guitar Center to get strings on sale and end up fucking around with doing droney pads on some display synth for fifteen minutes

hahaha OTM

I wonder how many people who put Ghosteen in their albums of the year lists will be listening to it in one, five, ten years?

I wonder this about literally every new record I've purchased since 2010 or so (with the exception of NTS Sessions 1-4) but I also acknowledge that this is a 'me' problem and not a 'music' problem. I also concede that I still get a lot of enjoyment from the ritual of getting swept up in the fever that still accompanies the release of particular albums. Last month when every message board was talking about Fear Inoculum? That was fun as hell. I dunno if I'll be listening to that album in five or ten years (probably not) but I had a good time getting swept up in all the excitement (see also: A Moon Shaped Pool). Ghosteen feels like one of those albums. This is why I am always loath to declare 'omg best album since xxx' and such, even when it might feel that way at the time.

He's not even that great in concert these days.

I saw him on "The First Born Is Dead" tour, which was as wild as anything. He encored with "Wild World" which almost made up for me never getting to see The Birthday Party.

I think I have probbaly seen him play a dozen times since then including one TV recording in G

He's not even that great in concert these days.

I saw him on "The First Born Is Dead" tour, which was as wild as anything. He encored with "Wild World" which almost made up for me never getting to see The Birthday Party.

I think I have probbaly seen him play a dozen times since then including one TV recording in Glasgow in front of an audience of around 100 which was so intimate that Blixa was practically sat on top of me while he was playing.

But the best time I

He's not even that great in concert these days.

I saw him on "The First Born Is Dead" tour, which was as wild as anything. He encored with "Wild World" which almost made up for me never getting to see The Birthday Party.

I think I have probably seen him play a dozen times since then including one TV recording in Glasgow in front of an audience of around 100 which was so intimate that Blixa was practically sat on top of me while he was playing.

But the best time I ever saw him was last year in an enormo-dome which I was expecting not to enjoy. He managed to make a 15000 capacity venue feel more intimate than that TV recording.

sorry for the muti posts - my phone is having a meltdown.

I've seen him a few different times since the mid '90s, but I haven't seen any of the recent big shows, just clubs and theaters. Speaking of context, what throws me a little bit is his stylistic turn came with Push the Sky Away, well before the death of his son, and even most of Skeleton Tree was iirc written or recorded before tragedy hit, too. Of course, that album is eerily resonant with what we, as fans/listeners, know happened, and the 3D movie subtly but explicitly expands on that feeling. So of course the new one is the first composed and recorded after the death of his son, and we listen with that in mind, but contextually I hear it as very much of a piece with the last three first and foremost. I'm honestly curious where he goes next, whether he stays in this minimal electro-acoustic mode or moves on to something else.

"He's not even that great in concert these days."

this is a bewildering statement to me. He's exceptional. Different than the 80's and 90's yeah, but that was a long fucking time ago.

On a separate note: Robert Ham (who...used to post here? still does? my brain is soft on this point) earlier today overheard a guy talk about this guy's friend who has a pizza place in the San Juan Islands in Washington. To quote Robert, the pizza place guy "is having a mural painted featuring Nick Cave, David Bowie, Joe Strummer and one other famous rocker he couldn't remember the name of sitting around a table eating pizza together." Needless to say I want to see this thing immediately.

Pics or it hasn't happened