IS ROCK CRITICISM DEAD?

x-post bitching about the superficiality of people's "becauses" while wishing more people would give their "because" is kinda self-defeating. Identity politics being forced on to pop music is what made it popular. If it all really is just another industry then we don't need essays about why this toaster is the best.

waht

its more of an "I AM UNIQUE AND UNCONVENTIONAL" lifestyle

― Kitchen Paper Towel (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, June 17, 2009 3:33 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yah, this is what i meant.

I had starbucks today actually, lol

It just seems funny to complain about people buying into the "I'M UNIQUE AND UNCONVENTIONAL" products when rock criticism is basically about telling people what is unique and unconventional.

and I don't mean that as a direct knock against Mr. Listening To 1000 Albums This Year, to a certain point I think listening to a shit ton of stuff can be an enriching experience, but even the selection on Whiney's twitter clearly steers toward/away certain music based on his personal tastes.

xpost

identity politics being forced on to pop music is what made it popular.

specifically what do you mean by this

i should say "identity politics being forced on to pop music is basically the only reason rock criticism exists"

btw whiney i don't really have a lot to add here other than i will be bummed when criticism finally kicks it and that your speech was hella entertaining and you delivered it well.

You're reading me wrong, croup

I think "IUAU" is a fine reason to listen to something. The point is that people are sold "I'M UNIQUE AND UNCONVENTIONAL" as a lifestyle brand for music that isn't actually unique nor unconventional.

I mean, I stan for Ipecac and Hydra Head which are pretty much IUAU culture for ex-metalheads

Perhaps it's just me, but doesn't success turn most things that are unique and unconventional into the standard of conformity almost by definition?

I'm reading you right, Whiney. But to complain the sheep think "IUAU" because they bought "IUAU" in the middle of a defense of rock criticism is really self-defeating. Because that's what critics sell.

pepper keenan to thread

I bought an expensive Italian suit today, to try and get myself a better job, so I can earn more money and spend it on records and CD players and designer sofas. I've never even set foot in Starbucks. I think Ikea is some kind of utopian playground compared to most comparably-priced furniture stores. I like Animal Collective and Grizzly Bear and The Field and I think Fleet Foxes have about 4 decent tunes but are too winsome and too obvious. But I also like the "because". I don't give a fuck for IUAU. I give a fuck for quality experiences in my life. Whether that's an Italian suit or British speakers or a better pizza than Pizza Hut can make or drinking Kasteel Cru instead of Fosters or listening to Patrick Wolf instead of Jack Penate.

also whiney you kinda look like a dude i know and it's freaking me out!

Well, shitty critics sell Fleet Foxes as IUAU. I never said all critics are good and worthwhile.

oh ok well tell us who the good ones are and we'll financially support them

feel free to paypal me anytime

I think rock criticism needs to be more scientifically rigorous.

"people actually buying into the idea that major-label creation Santigold is some bold swing against pop music"

Wuh?

they should make CDS like a pregnancy test where good CDs have a blue plus that appears if you pee on them

I think rock criticism needs to be more scientifically rigorous.

yeah like being about MUSIC and close readings of what's actually on the records instead of oh, say, identity politics

it would be cool if rock criticism became more like the blurbs on old jazz records IMO

The problem, though, is that after the advent of Rolling Stone, it seems impossible to talk about music without resorting to identity politics.

rock criticism is basically about telling people what is unique and unconventional

Depends on the rock critic

should say "identity politics being forced on to pop music is basically the only reason rock criticism exists"

― da croupier, Wednesday, June 17, 2009 7:44 PM (

Huh? Still don't understand. This is why Creem and Crawdaddy started is what you're saying? And that pop music wouldn't have identity politics if there were not rock critics? Not sure I buy that

This is maybe swinging off to a whole other tangent, but my gripe with "things these days" is kind of the opposite of Whiney's -- that people (maybe not everyone but definitely a lot of people) think it's possible to hear everything, or a representative sample of everything, and figure out what the best of everything is in some objective way. I kinda feel like heavy duty music listeners (I just mean people who cop/download new shit on a regular basis, no value judgement here) should be MORE in tune witch exactly what they do or don't like and hone in on it, not go "OK i'm gonna get the BEST rap album and BEST indie album and BEST dance album etc. of the last few months," whether they're getting their idea of best from Pitchfork or word of mouth or whatever. I lke figuring out what's idioscyncratic about my tastes and catering to it by feeding that passion, not just constantly measuring it against the concensus.

― the cult of radio killa (some dude), Wednesday, June 17, 2009 7:38 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

^^ there's totally a whole OTHER clusterfuck thread in this

I think rock criticism needs to be more scientifically rigorous.

yeah like being about MUSIC and close readings of what's actually on the records instead of oh, say, identity politics

― m coleman, Wednesday, June 17, 2009 2:54 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I meant like not getting to make shit up and having to back assertions with verifiable data.

I think croupier's onto something tbh

Depends on the rock critic

What critic thinks the music they enjoy is common and conventional? That would be an impressively self-aware conservative critic.

This is why Creem and Crawdaddy started is what you're saying? And that pop music wouldn't have identity politics if there were not rock critics?

Music would have identity politics, but rock criticism basically started so people could say what they got out of pop music, which more often than not has to do with identity politics than a mere an appreciation of craft. There's a reason we care about one type and not the other.

one type of music and not another, I should clarify.

"people could say what they got out of pop music, which more often than not has to do with identity politics than a mere an appreciation of craft"

mmm yes/no

part of the problem with the whole 'music critics should use actual musical vocabulary' thing is that so much of the appeal of pop music even qua music is textural — there's not really a technical vocabulary to talk about how one THWOOMP noise is more interesting than another THWOOMP noise

"that people (maybe not everyone but definitely a lot of people) think it's possible to hear everything, or a representative sample of everything"

There've always been people like this. Folks who just buy the four star albums in record guides or whatever. I don't think it's any worse than it's ever been.

well, you know, "buy"

What critic thinks the music they enjoy is common and conventional? That would be an impressively self-aware conservative critic.

When I wanted to be a music writer, it was because I kept stumbling across stuff that wasn't that far removed from the mainstream but appeared to not have cracked it that I enjoyed a lot more than what was being played on the radio; my entire MO was "hey, you like A, why don't you like B and C as well?" and the not-at-all-subtle aim was to attempt to shift mainstream radio such that I could listen to it and be entertained. Shortly after this, modern rock stations started appearing that also had dance music and industrial blocks and I shut up.

part of the problem with the whole 'music critics should use actual musical vocabulary' thing is that so much of the appeal of pop music even qua music is textural — there's not really a technical vocabulary to talk about how one THWOOMP noise is more interesting than another THWOOMP noise

You can talk about reverb/distortion/filters, though, not necessarily in specific detail but at least in acknowledgment of the fact that a production choice resulted in manipulating a piece of technology to get that sound.

xp That seems like its a different complaint.

you really opened a can of straws with this speech

― Bitchtime Producto (M@tt He1ges0n), Wednesday, June 17, 2009 12:37 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark

lollllllllll

rock criticism basically started so people could say what they got out of pop music, which more often than not has to do with identity politics than a mere an appreciation of craft. There's a reason we care about one type and not the other.

imagine reviewing books where the critic didn't discuss the text and instead focused on how his/her impressions of the author squared with some politicized sense of identity. don't know about you but I wouldn't want to read that. isn't pop music MUSIC at its core? why can't listeners -- or critics -- be responding to music when they like a pop song?

x-post to Da Croupier-

I was reading your use of "unconventional" as asserting that all critics want to write about stuff that is avante-garde or atonal, and not stuff that sells to millions of people. But that's not what you meant I see.

"part of the problem with the whole 'music critics should use actual musical vocabulary' thing"

And the other part of the problem is that most readers of music criticism aren't terribly musically literate themselves. . .

Music would have identity politics, but rock criticism basically started so people could say what they got out of pop music, which more often than not has to do with identity politics than a mere an appreciation of craft. There's a reason we care about one type and not the other.

this is totally true but it kinda predates rock (cf black music being authentic/white music being fake)

x-post

why can't listeners -- or critics -- be responding to music when they like a pop song?

lolz are you kidding - music is a lifestyle accessory for the vast VAST majority of listeners

this is why I quit writing about music kthxbye

imagine reviewing books where the critic didn't discuss the text and instead focused on how his/her impressions of the author squared with some politicized sense of identity. don't know about you but I wouldn't want to read that. isn't pop music MUSIC at its core? why can't listeners -- or critics -- be responding to music when they like a pop song?

you're really overstating the case here. I think like-minded people can agree on what's "good" or "bad" based on close readings and an understanding of craft, but when talk about what's "great" we usually bring personal values in. And an appreciation of craft alone isn't usually what drives people to be evangelical about art.

You can talk about reverb/distortion/filters, though, not necessarily in specific detail but at least in acknowledgment of the fact that a production choice resulted in manipulating a piece of technology to get that sound.

― HIS VAGINA IS MAKING HIM CRAVE SALAD. (HI DERE)

which, you know, people do. -- i mean, it's not like most people completely avoid that, although i do wish hand-wavey terms like 'psychedelic guitar tones' or whatever would go away. btw you are totally the poster that comes to mind when ppl on this board mention the idea that pop music critics ought to talk about how the technical factors of how music works and stuff

"imagine reviewing books where the critic didn't discuss the text and instead focused on how his/her impressions of the author squared with some politicized sense of identity"

what, like in . . . book reviews?

btw the issues of responding to (and writing about) music qua music and not as 'lifestyle accessory' or 'identity politics' (are these two on a sliding scale or what?) are totally valid ones, if wgw's speech were a week-long seminar, and not a ten minute speech attempting to limn some particular problems in fairly light-hearted fashion

oh also:

I give a fuck for quality experiences in my life. Whether that's an Italian suit or British speakers or a better pizza than Pizza Hut can make or drinking Kasteel Cru instead of Fosters or listening to Patrick Wolf instead of Jack Penate.

― Sickamous Mouthall (Scik Mouthy), Wednesday, June 17, 2009 7:48 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark

^^ someone copy-paste the phil collins / huey lewis bits from american psycho here plz

why can't listeners -- or critics -- be responding to music when they like a pop song?

lolz are you kidding - music is a lifestyle accessory for the vast VAST majority of listeners

― Kitchen Paper Towel (Shakey Mo Collier), Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:09 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

real talk you are a depressing motherfucker

I don't feel depressing

seriously dude that's like saying "most people don't actually have ears they just grab the CD with the same cover everyone else has"