PMs change and lol we're all gonna die (but brexit will never end)

why do all these insufferable xunts even care what side jeremy corbyn supports anyway?

they've spent three years saying he was bloody AWOL during the last referendum - their positions are not even internally consistent

If Labour had claimed remain from the getgo, letting crazy clown BoJo ride the PM-ship for a while should have Labour well over the 50 percent imo.

(drinking rose tbf)

― Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 23 September 2019 bookmarkflaglink

Sadly I'm sober rn.

sorry wasn't referring to anyone itt as an insufferable xunt - meant hardcore "follow back, pedophile"-types

nb maitliss' forced confusion only matched by starmers seeming bewilderment there

i mean its an absurdly simple position. what the fuck gives.

did you literally come into a thread several hours later to resurrect this? I have no beef with Pom the person or any of the regulars itt, but it is so tedious having to explain & defend my position again and again and guessing others feel the same.

xps to deems

Yanis otm.

xp to Deems: Because ultimately ppl itt don't like people from outside England to opine on current brexit affairs. This has been made rather obvious. Hence comrade's remark just now, etc etc.

This is...extremely untrue & unfair.

I feel attacked

Being told to shut it is ok, being lumped together as "LBI and Pom" - though I care about Pom - is rather telling tbf. It's mostly comrade alphabet's doing though. And - raises fist - it won't stop me from *reading this thread!*. As I <3 Gyac, NV, Plax especially and most of youse.

I do have a stake in this, you know. I wouldn't haunt this thread if I didn't. No need to drag up the past again, it's all scattered across the board why I am interested in this, and my stake isn't even as prescient or serious as Pom's is (we get thrown together on here, and he seems to me a prince and a scholar, but we do in fact not know each other in real life, and it annoys the fuck out of me to be put in the 'foreigner' corner, just saying), as he's actually living in the uk.

*sighs* ah well.

Nobody is telling you to shut it LBI. Keep posting, its fine man.

Time for me to stick my head above the parapet. Labour should be leading on this and many other issues. Freedom of movement is a great thing, or at the very least the positives massively outweigh the negatives. As with everything else the Tories have done a shit job at dealing with the negatives whilst reaping the massive benefits of the positives, all while taking a classic fascist position on immigration ( especially people of colour and people who don’t measure up to whatever standards of economic benefit they choose to set)

Once again though labour is vacillating. Instead of coming out in full throated support of free movement and a internationalisation of workers rights we get something that is close to ‘legitimate concerns’ in the manifesto. (Migration impact fund should be restored and then some).

It is the timidity and vacillation that is galling.

sorry gyac ive had an uncharacteristically busy day

the two statements i picked out were likewise not a beef with either you or tom, both of whom i like as i like everyone itt.

im pointing out that the two *behaviours* ye identified as issues with pom (and specifically *not* positions) are far more egregiously displayed by others itt on an hourly basis and that seems so blatantly obvious to me at least that it invites anyone of good faith to have a moment to genuinely consider it.

nb i am perfectly aware i am not held as such a person itt, nonetheless the invite stands.

should point out that i dont at all agree with the characterisation in lbi's follow up fwiw

some of the bullshit self victimisation in this thread tonight is about as convincing as Gapes attempt at joining the grammar police!

If you're gonna come out with 'well if Lab adopt a Lib Dem position they win +50 next election'. I mean, I'm not made of stone.

.....fair

soz lbi. the mans not wrong.

Well yeah Deems, you wouldn't, but things seem to be getting hostile in here rather quickly as of late. It's all fun and games w/ Calz ranting and cursing at the so called French massive (of which neither Pom or I are part of iirc), and others soon join and it makes this thread a less welcoming place.

Best to take he back seat as I love you all and god save the queen etc.

xp ffs

If you're gonna come out with 'well if Lab adopt a Lib Dem position they win +50 next election'. I mean, I'm not made of stone.

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, September 24, 2019 12:56 AM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, this isn't even close to what I was saying...

This is all very silly, because what matters is what Ed wrote above. That is what matters, that is the fucking point. "The timidity and vacillation that is galling".

xp to Deems: Because ultimately ppl itt don't like people from outside England to opine on current brexit affairs. This has been made rather obvious. Hence comrade's remark just now, etc etc.

This so much bollocks esp. as hardly anyone itt is actually English!

Idk! Peeps/Comrade/Calzino seem to *love too* throw "french" ppl together when it comes down to it.

"w/ Calz ranting and cursing at the so called French massive"

that is a gross mischaracterisation of what has actually happened today, and i like Pom ftr even though sometimes I'll have a pop at him occasionally (and nobody dies) - I'm not a xenophobe. But you have been posting some of worst garbage I've seen in years on this thread tonight, proper fucking bullshit FBPE deep cuts from hell. Get a fucking grip!

guillotines innit xp

Well yeah Deems, you wouldn't,

what because im a northsider now? you cur!

Surely the ILX Montagnards should be pro-French?

i will have an opportunity to check in itt in approx 11 hours and i hope to see demonstrably worse behaviour from all fwiw

But you have been posting some of worst garbage I've seen in years on this thread tonight, proper fucking bullshit FBPE deep cuts from hell.

If only dn's allowed for this much characters.

Free movement is the antidote to the bonfire of workers rights, wages and the race to the bottom. If workers have the ability to sell their skills to the highest bidder (even if only some take up the opportunity) it raises pay and condition. If only capital is free to move and not labour, labour is fucked because capital flow to where it is cheapest and labour will be powerless. People have to have the right to up sticks a seek out a better life.

Thread needs more Ed <3

transparent kowtowing is less what this thread needs, especially from posters who deep down know they've shit the bed after too many wine spritzers!

you post that 50+ clear bollocks about labour in remain position and expect not to get some shit on a messageboard. And then start with some self-victimising bullshit. You are a joke!

Playing this differently would have picked up some support at the expense of other support. I generally think the right path has been taken, but not with a significantly solid level of conviction or certainty. The lay of the land is what it is

Otherwise its just

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_oZgQT4uNQ

Dunno what this fake love-in is about. I personally can't stand most of you.

that's not actually true but there are tens/hundreds of UK ILXors using this site daily who are interested in politics and this thread is a no-go for them. That's not conjecture, btw.

FWIW, a good experiment is to deliberately not post to this thread for a while and just observe it. It's really not a good thread to observe.

I do that all the time and it’s pure respite from Trump administration bullshit. I love this thread.

FWIW, a good experiment is to deliberately not post to this thread for a while and just observe it. It's really not a good thread to observe.

turd throwing is an acceptable amateur sport, no animals are harmed, get with the program

A depressing problem confronting Labour’s Brexit strategy is that there is a large (growing?) proportion of society that doesn’t want to bring this culture war to an end per se, they want to win it.

— Will Davies (@davies_will) September 23, 2019

depressing because as we know from the US you can’t win a culture war. the right know this - the object is not to win but to perpetuate it forever and as people get more angry they might not notice all the other shit going wrong around them. labour’s position is the only one which recognises this and offers a route out here...

stick this on a billboard !!

Labour is promising free personal care for OAPs, perfect state schools, cheaper bills, better trains, lower emissions, fully funded councils, electric cars when you want em, no prescription charges, no tuition fees, no austerity, lower taxes for 95%- and all with a four day week!

— steve hawkes (@steve_hawkes) September 23, 2019

Yeah, this isn't even close to what I was saying...

― Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 23 September 2019 23:04 (yesterday) link

This is all very silly, because what matters is what Ed wrote above. That is what matters, that is the fucking point. "The timidity and vacillation that is galling".

― Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 23 September 2019 23:09 (yesterday) link

Well beyond you and Ed not liking Lab's Brexit policy you are not coming up with the same thing at all. You were agreeing with Lammy who was comparing Lab policy with Tory and Lib Dem policy, and was doing it badly, for point scoring.

If, through Lab's policy, we end up fully remaining in the EU then there will be FOM. If you vote Lib Dem we could end up leaving. That's the reality of Labour's 'vacillation'.

depressing because as we know from the US you can’t win a culture war. the right know this - the object is not to win but to perpetuate it forever and as people get more angry they might not notice all the other shit going wrong around them. labour’s position is the only one which recognises this and offers a route out here...

― stoffle (||||||||),

Brexit has always been a culture war (the idea that immigration or the EU itself are major factors behind leave have always been wrong, its mostly identity politics). I don't necessarily agree its a growing section of society on either side though, just the illusion or fig leaf of tangibility has gradually been put back on the shelf (hence the lack of interest in a deal)

Leave have never seemed that fussed about actually leaving, and Remain have never seemed that fussed about remaining, moving of goalposts to make sure goal is never quite achievable. Riding the grievance wave. The victory is nothing to do with the EU and never has been

Where I'd semi-disagree with that tweet, is while I agree large sections of society want to "win" against the other side, I don't think they want to bring it to an end at all, but to feel the continuing cut and thrust of battle. The public may say they are sick of it and just want it to end, but they are lying, because they are addicted

</adam curtis voice>

Labour has some fantastic policies, but it's all going to be swamped by brexit. And at the risk of being labelled a centre-right/FBPE/whatever concern troll, I can't for the life of me see how their brexit policy is going to be an electoral winner. For the vast majority of people who don't follow this stuff closely, they're just going to see that tories = pro=brexit, libdems = anti-brexit, labour = fudge/can't make their minds up. And of course that narrative will be hammered home by the media. Some remain/labour voters will peel off to the libdems, some leave/labour voters will stay at home or possibly vote brexit party. And absolutely no previously non-labour voters will be persuaded by this to vote labour. And Labour needs not only to hang on to the voters they have, but persuade quite a few more.

I got Vardz in to do it and that lad isn't cheap should have gone with Fabian Delph he was on offer

agree with wanting to "win" stuff - some politicians continue to tell their audience that "winning" is possible and to hold firm - and also the shallowness of the "i just want it to end/go away" stuff

"pick a side" is such trash

Labour has some fantastic policies, but it's all going to be swamped by brexit

This comes down to whether this is true on the ground as well as true in the media (I don't necessarily have a strong view either way on this). Basically whether the Peterborough by-election was indicative or an anomaly

Winning is never about the trophy you get to hold, its about the look on the travelling fans faces as they leave early. The trophy is meaningless without it

If anyone is motivated solely by Brexit then the choice between a party that is going full-pelt towards No Deal vs one who will offer a second referendum with Remain on the ballot should be fairly clear. Anyone hanging their FBPE hopes on the Lib Dems winning a majority is going to be disappointed.