The Lysergic Acid Diethylamidiotic Joe Biden & Sarah Palin VP Presidential Debate thread in the 2 zero zero 8 (2008 party over oops)

I don't remember it! Will have to skim the transcript. xp

it doesn't come across as well in print, but palin delivering "mccain knows how to win a war!" seemingly in reference to vietnam was amusing

John McCain who knows how to win a war. Who’s been there and he’s faced challenges and he knows what evil is and knows what it takes to overcome the challenges here with our military.

Incredible that bit where she claimed a desire for MORE power than Cheney.

Birth of a twittering monster.

― i, grey, Friday, October 3, 2008 8:35 AM (53 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

the thing that struck me was the skyrocketing CNN audience ratings when biden responded to this by talking about how bad cheney's been.

i would love to see the campaign tie THOSE things into the popular distaste for 'big government'

it doesn't come across as well in print, but palin delivering "mccain knows how to win a war!" seemingly in reference to vietnam was amusing

John McCain who knows how to win a war. Who’s been there and he’s faced challenges and he knows what evil is and knows what it takes to overcome the challenges here with our military.

― schlump, Friday, October 3, 2008 9:38 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

conservatives have a bizzaro world view of that war fyi

Couric: Could you give me a synonym for evening? Just, perhaps, another word one, in any time zone, in any language, might use to replace the word evening if that was off limits?

don't understand the motivation behind asking this type of question? a vocabulary test? really? that's really gonna rock the neutrals' world

she was testing palin's vocabulary skills, IMO

I thought the mccain/spain thing was that he was being questioned about south america by a reporter, and he was taking a hard stance against chavez, etc. then the reporter asked him if he would meet with the PM of spain, and mccain, hearing a spanish-sounding name, thought the reporter was talking about some other random latin american commie so he kept up his hardass pose.

it's kinda hard for the mccain campaign to explain away, except to say "he didn't recognize the name of the PM of spain, dur", which they're not going to do, though obama/biden are making a big enough deal out of it that they may have to now. but they'll just grumble "gotcha msm journalism make life unfair blah blah" and be done with it.

I just have to thank her for pointing out O'Biden's Irish roots.

she also needs to come clean about the time change in Alaska. Couric dances around the subject, but the time change is going to have a big effect if she's VP.

Couric: So what time of day is the evening? What sorts of things might the Governor of Alaska do in the evening?

Palin: That’s something that everyone kind of has their own personal take on that, Katie. I can’t be presumptuous and tell you when the evening is. I know when it takes place personally for me, but because of maritime locales, and what have you, and different clocks, and because all of us individuals find ourselves on different areas of the map from time to time, evening is sort of a relative concept, Katie. I’ve been around enough not to inflict my stance there. That’s up to the states.

this just reveals the nihilistic depths of my cynicism, but biden getting choked up struck me as a crass bit of political theater. palin didn't do herself any favors by ignoring it, though.

That's why I was confused about what prompted the crying.

Mike Mansfield, a former leader of the Senate, said to me one day — he — I made a criticism of Jesse Helms. He said, “What would you do if I told you Jesse Helms and Dot Helms had adopted a child who had braces and was in real need?” I said, “I’d feel like a jerk.”

this confused me

I was like "child with braces in need? just don't call him tinsel teeth and things will work out fine."

I guess he meant leg braces...

Yeah having worn leg braces myself that was my first association, but I also thought "is anyone else under 40 gonna get that?"

40 being an arbitrarily chosen age beneath which you might not remember young people walkin around in leg braces, but fuck it maybe lots of people have seen Forrest Gump or w/e

here's the choking up segment. biden's emotional moment is as much non sequitur as palin's response is aspergerish, so let's just call it a draw.

IFILL: Let’s talk conventional wisdom for a moment. The conventional wisdom, Gov. Palin with you, is that your Achilles heel is that you lack experience. Your conventional wisdom against you is that your Achilles heel is that you lack discipline, Sen. Biden. What id it really for you, Gov. Palin? What is it really for you, Sen. Biden? Start with you, governor.

PALIN: My experience as an executive will be put to good use as a mayor and business owner and oil and gas regulator and then as governor of a huge state, a huge energy producing state that is accounting for much progress towards getting our nation energy independence and that’s extremely important.

But it wasn’t just that experience tapped into, it was my connection to the heartland of America. Being a mom, one very concerned about a son in the war, about a special needs child, about kids heading off to college, how are we going to pay those tuition bills? About times and Todd and our marriage in our past where we didn’t have health insurance and we know what other Americans are going through as they sit around the kitchen table and try to figure out how are they going to pay out-of-pocket for health care? We’ve been there also so that connection was important.

But even more important is that world view that I share with John McCain. That world view that says that America is a nation of exceptionalism. And we are to be that shining city on a hill, as President Reagan so beautifully said, that we are a beacon of hope and that we are unapologetic here. We are not perfect as a nation. But together, we represent a perfect ideal. And that is democracy and tolerance and freedom and equal rights. Those things that we stand for that can be put to good use as a force for good in this world.

John McCain and I share that. You combine all that with being a team with the only track record of making a really, a difference in where we’ve been and reforming, that’s a good team, it’s a good ticket.

IFILL: Senator?

BIDEN: You’re very kind suggesting my only Achilles Heel is my lack of discipline.

Others talk about my excessive passion. I’m not going to change. I have 35 years in public office. People can judge who I am. I haven’t changed in that time.

And, by the way, a record of change — I will place my record and Barack’s record against John McCain’s or anyone else in terms of fundamental accomplishments. Wrote the crime bill, put 100,000 cops on the street, wrote the Violence Against Women Act, which John McCain voted against both of them, was the catalyst to change the circumstance in Bosnia, led by President Clinton, obviously.

Look, I understand what it’s like to be a single parent. When my wife and daughter died and my two sons were gravely injured, I understand what it’s like as a parent to wonder what it’s like if your kid’s going to make it.

I understand what it’s like to sit around the kitchen table with a father who says, “I’ve got to leave, champ, because there’s no jobs here. I got to head down to Wilmington. And when we get enough money, honey, we’ll bring you down.”

I understand what it’s like. I’m much better off than almost all Americans now. I get a good salary with the United States Senate. I live in a beautiful house that’s my total investment that I have. So I — I am much better off now.

But the notion that somehow, because I’m a man, I don’t know what it’s like to raise two kids alone, I don’t know what it’s like to have a child you’re not sure is going to **CHOKES UP** — is going to make it — I understand.

I understand, as well as, with all due respect, the governor or anybody else, what it’s like for those people sitting around that kitchen table. And guess what? They’re looking for help. They’re looking for help. They’re not looking for more of the same.

IFILL: Governor?

PALIN: People aren’t looking for more of the same. They are looking for change. And John McCain has been the consummate maverick in the Senate over all these years.

well he simply said "Past is prologue, right?" which succinctly deflated her entire pointless rant.

well he missed the chance to point out that we're actually talking about the present -- bush is still president, and we're dealing right now with the effects of republican rule -- but i don't expect that "let's not look backward" line to get a lot of use, because it's just too transparent.

Katie Couric asked the vice presidential nominees what is the "best and worst thing that Dick Cheney has done as Vice President?" Biden on Cheney's worst thing:
I think he's done more harm than any other single elected official in memory in terms of shredding the constitution. You know --condoning torture. Pushing torture as a policy. This idea of a unitary executive. Meaning the Congress and the people have no power in a time of war. And the President controls everything. I don't have any animus toward Dick Cheney but I really do think his attitude about the constitution and the prosecution of this war has been absolutely wrong.
What about Palin? Here's her answer:
Worst thing I guess that would have been the duck hunting accident--where you know, that was an accident. And I think that was made into a caricature of him. And that was kind of unfortunate. So the best thing though, he's shown support, along with George W. Bush, of our troops. And I've been there when George Bush has spoken to families of those who have suffered greatly, those who are serving in the military. I've been there when President Bush has embraced those families and expressed the concern and the sympathy speaking for all of America in those times. And for Dick Cheney to have supported that effort of George Bush's, I respect that.

HAHAHAHA

From Andrew Sullivan.

the sweet cnn undecided focus group running graph is the only thing that kept me going through that boring ass debate

the choking up was politically fortuitous but genuine, i thought.

but who said that because he's a man he doesn't know how to raise two kids alone? maybe his debate proxy...

we are to be that shining city on a hill, as President Reagan so beautifully said

huge lolz @ this

neither the original question nor palin's reponse really called for going there, it was like, "debate's almost over, gotta squeeze this in somewhere."

xp

I'm glad that someone else noticed when she confused the commander in Afghanistan, David D. McKiernan, with the Army of the Potomac commander and Democratic presidential candidate in 1864, Geroge McClellan. Talk about pointing backward.

biden's emotional moment is as much non sequitur as palin's response is aspergerish

How is getting momentarily choked up when talking about a hypothetical ailing child when your own child died a "non sequitur"?

(xpost) The "because I'm a man" comment seems to be a direct answer / response to Palin's "hockey MOM" rhetoric.

Geroge? Man, I need some more coffee.

How is getting momentarily choked up when talking about a hypothetical ailing child when your own child died a "non sequitur"?

Because it wasn't responding to a point or question?

just cause palin says "I'm a mom" that doesn't mean biden has to automatically say "I've been a mom too! a tragic tragic mom! *SNIFF*"

it seemed a bit reaching, that's all I'm saying

hey y'all:

this is kinda dumb but i've been in this kinda freefall panic about the whole election i've been TOTALLY avoiding all news and coverage and daily show and everything, so i just need to know cuz i've been worried all morning that they'd set expectations so super low that the big storyline coming out of the debate was going to be "palin shows her stuff" just because she seemed like halfway not retarded and they were gonna get some big bounce out of this like her convention speech....so is that happening?

hey there vikings fan

I don't wanna deny anybody their oprah moment, but come on, do you know how rehearsed these people are?

xp

too early to see a bounce but the general consensus is biden "won" xp

hey there vikings fan

― max, Friday, October 3, 2008 3:13 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha no shit...congenitally predisposed towards pessimism.

PALIN: me and todd had lotsa trouble sitting round the kitchen table at night, thinking 'bout sending kids to iraq, got a special needs kid right here in my papoose...

BIDEN: you've got a special needs kid? well mine's DEAD!

I know, I know, I'm going to hell

i dont get why ppl keep repeating the right wing "Who questioned his ability to be a parent???" thing.

i dont see why his response would only make sense in the context of someone challenging his parenting abilities!

Don't know how you guys can't see (or are unwilling to concede) that Biden's responding directly to / countering this bit of Palin's own non-answer...

But it wasn’t just that experience tapped into, it was my connection to the heartland of America. Being a mom, one very concerned about a son in the war, about a special needs child, about kids heading off to college, how are we going to pay those tuition bills? About times and Todd and our marriage in our past where we didn’t have health insurance and we know what other Americans are going through as they sit around the kitchen table and try to figure out how are they going to pay out-of-pocket for health care? We’ve been there also so that connection was important.

... in order to appeal to the same mom-and-pop straight-talkers that McPalin regularly aim for.

And if that shit was rehearsed, then Mission Accomplished, because it felt particularly genuine -- 100 times more so than Palin's golly-gee-whiz horseshit. And if Palin's going to user her kids as political props, then Biden going to that same well (which, again, I don't think was the intent, but I'm a softie) is totally fair game.

(xpost)

Biden ravaging Cheney during his wrap up (or right near it) was awesome, too. Just staring dead into the camera as he explained calmly and cogently what a monstrous piece of shit his (would-be) predecessor is.

Biden ravaging Cheney during his wrap up (or right near it) was awesome, too. Just staring dead into the camera as he explained calmly and cogently what a monstrous piece of shit his (would-be) predecessor is.

― flyover statesman (will), Friday, October 3, 2008 10:22 AM (10 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think i said this earlier but the undecided's reaction to that was off the charts

the corner is going crazy today about how biden is a big liar

Either Biden saved it as a heart-bomb or Biden didn't bring it up until the subject came up because he'd rather lose it on stage. Both seem possible (maybe he's genuine but aware of its value), but as I don't know how easy it is to fake tears about when your entire family was in a car accident and you lost half of it, I'm not gonna suggest he did based on what I saw.

"Need some wood?"

Haha, I said this aloud right after Biden said that he spends "a lot of time" at Home Depot.

sorry, rather NOT lose it on stage.

xpost to self

Have to agree, the Biden choke was a bit of a naked play for sympathy, I don't think Palin really needed to respond. If Palin had choked up about something, people would be on to her like a ton of bricks.

I didn't understand what was happening when it happened: I thought he realized that he was going to fuck up by saying something sexist, and so clammed up for a sec before continuing. So I was like wtf, and my wife said, oh, he was tearing up thinking of what happened to his family. So I guess I buy the CW on what this was, but was genuinely puzzled at first.

Don't know how you guys can't see (or are unwilling to concede) that Biden's responding directly to / countering this bit of Palin's own non-answer.

It wasn't a direct response! As theatre it worked, sure, but politicians showing too much emotion in these situations creeps me out, sorry.

"Message: I care."

biden's choke-up might have had an element of histrionics, but even so, he effectively worked himself up into the actual emotion, and in the aftermath, he channeled this emotion very effectively i thought, right back on message, at the issues (the kitchen table - they're looking for help - they don't want more of the same).

It wasn't a direct response!

73% of Biden and Palin's answers weren't direct responses, big deal

If Palin had choked up about something, people would be on to her like a ton of bricks.

Thing is, I saw her working really, really hard last night. There were a couple of moments, including in her (non)response to Biden's little emotional moment where I could almost see her remembering her coaching about her emotional response and then uttering some of the biggest nonsense I've ever heard.