PMs change and lol we're all gonna die (but brexit will never end)

some of my best friends are fbpe

look if you stop lobbing them up we'll stop smashing them back over the net

"It's not as though there were some EU-wide law preventing Sweden, Denmark or the Netherlands from implementing strong social policies (well, unless your actual goal is full communism, in which case ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)."

But what if the Labour Party's program became more than mild social democracy? There are different brands of left that aren't full communism.

All the countries you mention are from the European north. We have a new government in Italy who will try to pass a budget that could push EU rules. A situation to be watched closely because if this coalition doesn't work we will have elections with Salvini on the march.

I don't see any initiatives coming from the EU to tackle hostility towards people's rights in Poland or Hungary.

Then you've missed it, because they are trying to:

EU parliament votes to punish Hungary over 'breaches' of core values
EU weighs costs of punishing Poland

(it's not enough and cost-weighing is ugly, but you can't say there are "no initiatives")

what would 'more than mild social democracy' feasibly be

not against it, just wondering

I may possibly be attuned to certain of my peers/age cohort in the media who have never had to worry personally about destitution etc etc, of s piece with my distaste for those who insensitively proclaim they are ‘politically homeless’.

That article on Hungary is from 2018. What has happened since then?

That article on Hungary is from 2018. What has happened since then?

― xyzzzz__, Monday, September 16, 2019 2:08 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

They're still thinking abt it iirc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

what would 'more than mild social democracy' feasibly be

100% inheritance tax, workers on every company board, gulags, not even joking

socialism should never be an end goal, we demand economic democracy and we keep fucking demanding forwards forever

Just in the last couple of weeks: seizure of shares and property.

They're still thinking abt it iirc ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

― Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 16 September 2019 bookmarkflaglink

Lol@ the European empire

There are unknowns, in terms of what Labour could come up with, because it's up to the membership - whose numbers and composition have been changing and will continue to do so. The ability to see what is happening, propose solutions. Coming from the bottom.

This cannot be interfered with by the leadership of the Labour party, the unelected British establishment, or some shithead in Brussels with joke notions of an European empire throwing his EU book around.

testify comrade <3

we will fight and we will win because time and numbers are on our side

until the sea swallows us up but hey

Was the horrendous “preserving our European way of life” - insert your own echo symbols- post a way of addressing Hungary and Poland?

They got the guns but we got the numbers...

Slightly off topic but I was reading this thread, which i had never seen, of responses of Ireland to Jewish refugees during and post WW2, and was reminded of the exact same arguments put about by Poland and Hungary now.

The Irish postage stamp that marked World Refugee Year (1960) pic.twitter.com/R2E1n0kWsd

— Liam Hogan (@Limerick1914) June 20, 2018

Also, entirely unrelated now but fucking hell @ this thread from Stephen Bush

Fascinating insight into the classification system and categories used by Stanford and Princeton, in the software that acts as the baseline for most image identification algorithms. pic.twitter.com/QWGvVhMcE4

— Stephen Bush (@stephenkb) September 16, 2019

mixed bag pic.twitter.com/jeIESeh0TZ

— Joe (@steamedhamms) September 16, 2019

i've long suspected that i'd end up being murdered by a terminator but i never gave any thought to the fact that it'll probably be a racist terminator

xp Seems legit:

https://i.imgur.com/GSJdYLF.png

For a (sad)lol read the Guardian piece from the other day on Sedgefield wrinklies who think Jammy Crabs literally IS IRA-sis and/or Just. Don't. Trust. Him.

Lib Dems are still far more likely to take, say, 10 seats from the Tories than the equivalent from Labour, whoever says what - short of those SNP '15 level swings (gonna keep pointing this out seeing as we live in a country where bookmakers use their official Twitter accounts to suggest at 6/1 Labour should stand down in Tory marginals seats in favour of 12/1 Lib Dems because apparently they don't even understand their own business).

Continuity remain has a lot to answer for - soft Brexit was clearly the least worst option to exit and they kept turning it down.

eh I don't accept that it's all down to Remainers refusing to compromise initially, because no compromise was even hinted at as possible until v late in the day. I think if something EEA/EFTA-like had been put on the table as a compromise option early on it would have had a lot of takeup from both sides, but it needed someone from the gov/prominent leavers/leave-y press to signal its acceptability too, not just shut it down instantly as not addressing Legitimate Concerns. I was disappointed it didn't do better in the indicative votes but it was too late by then

agreed that the LDs at the moment are throwing around a lot of incredibly unhelpful rhetoric; been meaning to write to my LD MP (who I think, perhaps mistakenly, is one of the less bad ones) and express disappointment, but not sure I'm articulate enough to sound reasonable-ish so I keep putting it off

I expressed doubts about previous iterations but for me Lab's current Brexit position is just about the best one which is in any way possible/sellable and I'm v disappointed that anyone who doesn't want No Deal is still quibbling with it, never mind the people going "well it's exactly what I said I wanted 6 months ago, b-but Jummery Crowbins"

i think i said it before but in a way it feels like the UK shd always have been Norway. there are way too many god's own country cretins in England especially to ever have a comfortable place in the centre of the EU. how this works/feels in other EU nations i don't know.

many xps:

Part of the challenge is striking the right balance between the sovereignty demanded by each member state and continent-wide oversight. Aside from freedom of movement, symbolism, the single market, and certain specific laws and regulations (such as the right to be forgotten), the EU ultimately has very little say in what a given member may or may not do, as the UK has repeatedly demonstrated by consistently seeking to broker a 'special' status within the union. Should the EU do more for non-EU migrants? Indubitably, and Germany has shown the way in that regard, but what about the others (including France under Macron and Hollande before him, to say nothing of the massive unpopularity of immigrants in most European countries at the moment)? Eastern Europe in particular – and as a whole – is utterly unwilling to compromise on this point, and very little can be done to coerce them, which is a sad example of the EU's limited powers.

So 'aside' from the aforementioned freedom of movement, the single market, the symbolic weight of a united postwar Europe and a few additional perks (all of which are nonetheless quite nifty, if I may say so), does anyone seriously believe that Britain has had its hands even remotely tied until the emancipatory triggering of Article 50? Or that the quest for a UK-wide 'mild social democracy' has been hindered by the EU? (All rhetorical questions, obviously.) It's all a little too convenient given how weak the EU is as a 'standalone' institution, especially when faced with a country as wealthy and influential as the UK (i.e. not-Greece). Which reminds me: another way in which Brexiteer rhetoric is similar to that of the fascists of yore (as per Umberto Eco) is that it ascribes both exceptional strength and exceptional weakness to its opponent(s).

Oh, and on the subject of 'our European way of life', Juncker was none too happy about that. But von der Leyen appears to be doubling down with some lamely deflective bullshit about how we need to 'protect our languages', which is very much a reflection of the ever-increasing influence of neo-fascism in the West (and elsewhere). And since I am a Freudian pessimist of sorts (in the tradition of Civilization and Its Discontents), I've little doubt that we'll end up tearing each other to shreds again, most likely in the not-too-distant future (lol we're all gonna die), but that's just me. In the meantime, good luck to all.

every EU country is full of nationalists; the EU is designed to keep those nationalists from going to war with one another again. It is silly to think the UK is above falling back into its warmongering days against Europe, as the current discourse about Ireland shows.

'we should have killed people faster' suggests rueful former pm

The former Conservative prime minister David Cameron has recorded an interview with ITV’s Tom Bradby about his memoirs, which will be broadcast at 8pm tonight. Several extracts have already been published, and the Times published a long interview with Cameron on Saturday. You can read about those here. Here are some of the new lines from what Cameron told ITV.

Cameron suggests it might have been better to speed up the cuts required under his austerity programme. Asked to defend the austerity cuts, he said:

I think, look, the cuts were very difficult to make and there were lots of very difficult decisions and I’m not sure we got all of them right, but I’ve never wavered in the belief that it was necessary to make difficult decisions…

There is a case for saying that some of the changes we had to make in year two, in year three, in year four – it might have been better if we did a little bit more a bit earlier. When you have that sort of window of permission from the public, I felt after the 2010 election, you know, we’d fought an election, rather untraditionally, saying; ‘If you elect us, we’re going to make cuts and people will look back at this period and there’ll be great big arguments about it.’

xp off topic but have you ever watched Utopia? If not, you should.

i for one am shocked that a millionaire wishes he'd killed more people more quickly

Someone's had a word

Brexit referendum didn't deliver the outcome many of us hoped for

But you can't pretend the result didn't happen. LibDems are doing just that

You can't turn back the clock.
Nor ignore the 17m who voted Leave

This doesn't strengthen our democracy. It further imperils it https://t.co/5C5XfMnjqm

— Caroline Lucas (@CarolineLucas) September 16, 2019

yay Caroline Lucas is good now

she had a bad couple of months to be sure but the scales have fallen

von der Leyen appears to be doubling down with some lamely deflective bullshit about how we need to 'protect our languages', which is very much a reflection of the ever-increasing influence of neo-fascism in the West (and elsewhere)

Huge jump from 'protect our languages' to neo-fascism here Pom, don't think it's this black and white but I'd like to read more about this. As I don't think protecting languages is necesarily (neo-)fascist per se.

I agree, it's the leap from 'way of life' to 'language' that I think is neo-fascist.

See: https://www.politico.eu/article/von-der-leyen-on-european-way-of-life-we-cant-let-others-take-away-our-language/

Tbf here she seems to be using 'language' to mean 'discourse'? Which is hardly any better.

The proof of that is that our way of living is being challenged every day — as much by anti-Europeans from within as from without."

I agree, it's the leap from 'way of life' to 'language' that I think is neo-fascist.

― pomenitul, Monday, September 16, 2019 3:41 PM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Ah ok, gotcha there, thanks for the link. And I think she does mean 'discourse'. Though I really think she doesn't have a clue what she's on about and that's dangerous. Which is even worse.

I wonder what her exact words were in German. In Le Monde, 'language' was translated as 'expressions'.

Well, she will probably have said "Sprache", which is problematic because it means language but literally it's "speech". (can only find a paywalled write-up so can't check)

I assume so as well, in which case 'expressions' is an odd way to render it in French.

So Boris shat it in Luxembourg over the presence of a few demonstrators.

just like the incredible hulk

The would-be credible hulk.

So 'aside' from the aforementioned freedom of movement, the single market, the symbolic weight of a united postwar Europe and a few additional perks (all of which are nonetheless quite nifty, if I may say so), does anyone seriously believe that Britain has had its hands even remotely tied until the emancipatory triggering of Article 50? Or that the quest for a UK-wide 'mild social democracy' has been hindered by the EU? (All rhetorical questions, obviously.) It's all a little too convenient given how weak the EU is as a 'standalone' institution, especially when faced with a country as wealthy and influential as the UK (i.e. not-Greece). Which reminds me: another way in which Brexiteer rhetoric is similar to that of the fascists of yore (as per Umberto Eco) is that it ascribes both exceptional strength and exceptional weakness to its opponent(s).

So the crushing of Greece was a show of weakness by Europe?

And if the EU can't do very much such as imposing a set of (say) 'values' across the region then what good is the EU for? Why bother with it at all?

Eastern Europe in particular – and as a whole – is utterly unwilling to compromise on this point, and very little can be done to coerce them, which is a sad example of the EU's limited powers.

That's just nonsense - why not cut grants, impose sanctions. Talking big on the problems of communism but you've got nothing on this?!

cut grants, impose sanctions

fine grist for the populists mills

EU has values *whistles the opening tune to the 9th symphony by that fella Geir likes*

the fucking state of this, smdh

That was extraordinary. Boris Johnson, the British prime minister, has just been humiliated by the leader of the tiniest country in the European Union.

We were expecting a joint, open-air press conference but, with a large crowd of anti-Brexit campaigners threatening to drown out Johnson, it was announced that the British PM was not going to take part (presumably because of the demonstration, although that has not officially been confirmed yet). Normally in these circumstances the polite thing to do is to re-arrange. But instead Xavier Bettel, the prime minister of Luxembourg, just went ahead anyway, effectively “empty chairing” his guest. At one point he even gestured at the space where Johnson was supposed to be.

And then Xavier just let rip. People often wonder what EU leaders say or think about Johnson in private. Well, now we know. The leave campaign was a pack of lies, Johnson’s talk of progress in the Brexit talk is unfounded, the UK still has not come up with any ideas. On and on he went, with particular emphasis on the point that the UK, not the EU, was to blame for the crisis. It was a “nightmare” for EU citizen, said Bettel. At several points he was loudly applauded by the protesters, because they felt he was articulating their anger.

Where's that from?

tub of lard etc