though "y'all" can be singular
this is offensive
― Non stop chantar (crüt), Saturday, 14 September 2019 02:57 (four years ago) link
singular y'all is formal, like for if you're talking to the pope
― difficult listening hour, Saturday, 14 September 2019 03:19 (four years ago) link
.lol
― Dan S, Saturday, 14 September 2019 03:21 (four years ago) link
yall holiness
― j., Saturday, 14 September 2019 03:21 (four years ago) link
aka "the royal y'all"
― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 14 September 2019 03:37 (four years ago) link
hoagies are for them and her and him, but most importantly, me
― mookieproof, Saturday, 14 September 2019 03:50 (four years ago) link
"e" —Genesis Breyer P-Orridge
― Sassy Boutonnière (ledriver), Saturday, 14 September 2019 05:08 (four years ago) link
I remember tripping out on the gendered noun thing after being introduced to it in high school French - some of the designations were clearly meant to reinforce gender stereotypes (granted, others seemed really random, like the word for "chair" being gendered at all for ex.)
In German, the moon is masculine and the sun is feminine.
In French (and Romanian and likely other Romance languages), the most common slang term for 'dick' is feminine, whereas 'vagina' is masculine.
The arbitrariness of the sign covers grammatical gender as well. For the most part.
― pomenitul, Saturday, 14 September 2019 08:12 (four years ago) link
l'all
― provisional ilx (darraghmac), Saturday, 14 September 2019 08:17 (four years ago) link
Sie'all
― pomenitul, Saturday, 14 September 2019 08:19 (four years ago) link
I hope it's OK to use this thread to mention that I do not understand, nor have I seen a satisfactory explanation of, the preference in some circles for "folx" over "folks"
― Simon H., Saturday, 14 September 2019 08:31 (four years ago) link
Isn’t that just a jocular variant spelling like saying “that sux” or “comix”
― YouGov to see it (wins), Saturday, 14 September 2019 08:33 (four years ago) link
The contexts I consistently see it deployed in suggest not but I could be wrong
― Simon H., Saturday, 14 September 2019 08:34 (four years ago) link
This thread made me think the Danish version through, and I think I finally got it! It's a bit tricky in Danish, since 'de' both means 'they' but was also the formal way to talk to people you didn't know, like 'vous' in French. So it could also go: 'How are they?' 'I'm fine, but come on, we've known each other for years!' Etc. But we would get used to it.
― Frederik B, Saturday, 14 September 2019 08:43 (four years ago) link
The nonbinary pronoun 'they' has been added to the dictionary. https://t.co/tadl1VdfB0— Merriam-Webster (@MerriamWebster) September 17, 2019
― mookieproof, Tuesday, 17 September 2019 15:31 (four years ago) link
The French words "moustache" and "barbe" for "moustache" and "beard" are also feminine. "Soins" ("care") is masculine, while "guerre" (war) is feminine. I'm not sure gendering of nouns is based on gender stereotypes at all; tbh, it would be much easier to learn if it were.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 17 September 2019 15:42 (four years ago) link
Yeah, I heard that David Sedaris story about learning genders in French. It's actually much simpler than he makes it out to be. Abstract concepts are typically feminine (la masculinité), definite objects are masculine (le vagin).
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 17 September 2019 16:02 (four years ago) link
Obv there are lots of exceptions but it's not really hard to grasp
The idea that linguistically we're taught that the feminine gender is associated with the abstract and the masculine gender is associated with the concrete sounds like Kristeva could have a field day on this topic if she already hasn't
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 17 September 2019 16:05 (four years ago) link
except i don't think that's true at all? there are plenty of definite objects that are feminine in French - la chaise, la lampe, la chaussette etc - and plenty of masculine abstract concepts - le futur, le bien-être, etc
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, 17 September 2019 17:36 (four years ago) link
Pacifisme, socialisme, capitalisme, etc = all masculine. If anything, it's more useful to look at the endings of words. Words with "té" and "tion" endings tend to be feminine, ones with "age" and "isme" tend to be masculine, but there are still exceptions.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 17 September 2019 19:32 (four years ago) link
Oh no, for sure, it's not a hard-and-fast rule but it's usually my fall-back when I'm having to guess a gender on the fly in conversation and the noun itself doesn't end in a decisively gendered way
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 17 September 2019 19:42 (four years ago) link
There's a case to be made that guitars are more abstract than pianos, actually.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 17 September 2019 19:58 (four years ago) link
best thought of as being related to word ending than to anything else it seems
― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 17 September 2019 20:07 (four years ago) link
Fwiw I know it seems odd when your mother tongue is English but it's best not to think about this stuff at all when learning a 'gendered' language. 99.9% of the time it scans as neutral to native speakers, just like in English. Which isn't to say that it can't and doesn't get political in some cases, but when it comes to objects and ideas, 'gender' is all over the place, really – to such an extent that it probably shouldn't be called gender at all (although it is true that 'isme', 'ion' and other such suffixes often give you a clue as to whether said word is masculine or feminine in French).
It's mostly the way we talk about human beings that matters (cue Heidegger arguing that 'Mädchen' aka 'young girl' or 'maiden' is grammatically neutral in German because she isn't a fully-fledged human yet), and that's where pushback becomes une nécessité. In 19th century France, 'madame le maire' meant the mayor's wife; then the female mayor; now 'la' maire is quite common and 'mairesse' is perfectly acceptable, even encouraged in Quebec. This incidentally reminds me of an exchange I had with LL a while back: she balked at my use of the term 'poetess' in English, whereas in French quite a few (although not all) women poets would insist on being described as such (and tbf this is also the case in certain English-speaking feminist circles). Conversely, I'm still uncomfortable with the widespread use of 'female' in English because it just sounds… zoological?
Anyhow, this is all too simplistic, no doubt, but I think it's best to focus on how we describe each other regardless of language, in which case I'd like to add that French (to say nothing of Romanian) is indeed fucking terrible at expressing the experiences of nonbinary people, and at some point it will have to evolve.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 17 September 2019 20:33 (four years ago) link
My favourite is "sénatrice" as in news stories about "Sénateur Bernie Sanders et Sénatrice Elizabeth Warren".
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 17 September 2019 22:43 (four years ago) link
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_pronouns🕸The same thing holds for second-person pronouns as well.just want to insert this: taiwanese singer jolin tsai did a massively popular pro-trans/genderqueer song last year, which contains this lyric:你是你或者妳,都行which translates beautifully to:“you‘re you (male) or you (female), both are okay”so, using these specific second-person gendered pronouns (which are common in taiwan) to make a point which sounds nongendered but has a pretty clear meaning.
― times 牛肉麵 (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 18 September 2019 06:53 (four years ago) link
why is listing multiple pronouns the norm
like, is anyone she/him or they/her
― mookieproof, Friday, 27 September 2019 20:51 (four years ago) link
is anyone she/him
zooey deschanel and m. ward
― flopsy bird (voodoo chili), Friday, 27 September 2019 20:56 (four years ago) link
some people do want to indicate that they can be called both gendered and neutral pronouns, I don't think anyone's pronominal gender varies based on part of speech. listing two or more declensions is useful if you use neopronouns
― president of deluded fruitcakes anonymous (silby), Friday, 27 September 2019 21:01 (four years ago) link
i deserved that xp
― mookieproof, Friday, 27 September 2019 21:01 (four years ago) link
― mookieproof
i've seen the latter, yes
― Poody Mae Bubblebutt, Miss Kumquat of 1947 (rushomancy), Friday, 27 September 2019 22:57 (four years ago) link
zooey d and m ward more like shee/it amirite
― Famous Anus (rip van wanko), Friday, 27 September 2019 23:03 (four years ago) link
all my friends are they/she's
― flopson, Friday, 27 September 2019 23:27 (four years ago) link
'call me anything except 'he''
― flopson, Friday, 27 September 2019 23:34 (four years ago) link
Japanese has a wonderful array of gendered and no gendered pronouns which can be used in all kinds of ways to indicate gender, position relative to others in the conversation, mood and other things.
In the first person you have the masculine and slightly thuggish 「俺、Ore」、「僕、boku」which is used casually by men and boys and has been a somewhat tomboyish signifier for girls but I hear more and more young women using it. 「私、watashi」is pretty neutral but also not often used in spite of the fact it is the one generally taught to foreigners learning the language.
https://people.umass.edu/partee/MGU_2009/papers/Ponamareva.pdf
― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Saturday, 28 September 2019 00:48 (four years ago) link
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/16/opinion/sunday/pronouns-quakers.html
The Quakers thus declared themselves to be, like God, “no respecter of persons.” So they thee-ed and thou-ed their fellow human beings without distinction as a form of egalitarian social protest. And like today’s proponents of gender-inclusive pronouns, they faced ridicule and persecution as a result.But there is also an important difference between the Quakers and today’s pronoun protesters. While modern activists argue that equality demands displays of equal respect toward others, the Quakers demonstrated conscientious disrespect toward everyone. Theirs was an equality of extreme humility and universally low status. Even the famously tolerant founder of Rhode Island, Roger Williams, couldn’t stand the Quakers and complained of the “familiarity, anger, scorn and contempt” inherent in their use of “thee” and “thou.”
But there is also an important difference between the Quakers and today’s pronoun protesters. While modern activists argue that equality demands displays of equal respect toward others, the Quakers demonstrated conscientious disrespect toward everyone. Theirs was an equality of extreme humility and universally low status. Even the famously tolerant founder of Rhode Island, Roger Williams, couldn’t stand the Quakers and complained of the “familiarity, anger, scorn and contempt” inherent in their use of “thee” and “thou.”
― j., Sunday, 17 November 2019 20:23 (four years ago) link
zooey d and m ward more like shee/it amirite― Famous Anus (rip van wanko)
― an incoherent crustacean (MatthewK), Sunday, 17 November 2019 21:22 (four years ago) link
there should be a godwin's law analogue: anyone criticizing the use of singular "they" will reflexively use singular "they" somewhere in their comment. it's uncanny how often it works
― like, I’m eating an elephant head (katherine), Monday, 18 November 2019 00:05 (four years ago) link
are there gender neutral terms for mother/father brother/sister aunt/uncle other than 'parent' 'sibling'?
― flopson, Monday, 18 November 2019 02:36 (four years ago) link
I like parent, sibling, nibling. I call my two gn siblings "my sibs" with a certain amount of enthusiasm.
― that said, I’d prefer a single serving of you (flamboyant goon tie included), Monday, 18 November 2019 17:21 (four years ago) link
what's a nibling? personal pronouns are important because everyone needs to use them; i don't really see words for familial relations in the same need category at all. they show a relationship. if you want to sever your relationship, that's up to you. one cannot sever one's pronominal relationship to oneself.
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 18 November 2019 19:19 (four years ago) link
LL, many relationship-showing words are inherently gendered, e.g. niece, nephew, aunt, uncle. There is no standard non-gendered equivalent for these words, so it's impossible to reflect a relationship without gendering a person who is simply not of that gender.
"Nibling" is an ungendered niece/nephew child-of-siblings word.
Have heard a few for siblings-of-parent but don't much like any of them. Any other suggestions?
― Branwell with an N, Monday, 18 November 2019 19:35 (four years ago) link
the siblings of your parents are your 0th cousins once removed. (your siblings are your 0th cousins.)
― Swilling Ambergris, Esq. (silby), Monday, 18 November 2019 19:38 (four years ago) link
oooooh duh i forgot about that bc i don't have siblings and my aunts/uncles are not a part of my life bc we haven't spoken in years
silly mistakenevermind! sorry
― weird woman in a bar (La Lechera), Monday, 18 November 2019 19:39 (four years ago) link
your siblings are your 0th cousins
whoa
― a passing spacecadet, Monday, 18 November 2019 20:20 (four years ago) link
they's all kin
― j., Monday, 18 November 2019 20:34 (four years ago) link
Huh, I didn't know the current usage of 'sibling' was so recent.
1903, modern revival of Old English sibling (“relative, a relation, kinsman”), equivalent to sib + -ling. Compare Middle English sib, sibbe (“relative; kinsman”), German Sippe. The term apparently meant merely kin or relative until the 20th century when its necessity for the study of genetics led to its specialized use. For example, the OED has a 1903 citation in which "sibling" must be defined for those who don't know the intended meaning.
The word 'sib' or 'sibling' is coming into use in genetics in the English-speaking world, as an equivalent of the convenient German term 'Geschwister' [E.&C. Paul, "Human Heredity," 1930]
― jmm, Monday, 18 November 2019 20:37 (four years ago) link
Iceland came up with an official patronym for nonbinary folks this year (-bur):
https://www.icelandreview.com/news/icelandic-names-will-no-longer-be-gendered/
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Monday, 18 November 2019 20:48 (four years ago) link
so parents still have to petition to give a girl a "boy" name and vice versa unless they identify the child as gender-neutral? weird progressive/regressive juxtaposition there.
― Evans on Hammond (evol j), Monday, 18 November 2019 20:54 (four years ago) link