The Irish

can someone who knows a bit more about it fill me in on one aspect of the emma de souza case? No article I've read mentions the reasons why the home office is pursuing this in court. A few have mentioned "brexit" but I'm not really following the logic. It seems to have something about asserting domestic law over allowing say the ECJ to have jurisdiction over half the population and therefore over NI? Is this correct?

emma de souza case bit confusing to me but the reason the home office is pursuing it in court is because ... they don't like immigration and people appealing immigration decisions in court?

i think its a basic split motivation between the ECJ jurisdiction argument and a simple rejection of the "self identification" of nationality

presumably the underlying driver boils down to "call yourself what you like but NI is british"

Emma de Souza is an Irish citizen from NI who has never held British citizenship. On this basis, her status as an EU citizen means she can have her (non-EU) husband live with her in NI. However the home office considers her a British citizen, even though this contravenes the provisions in the GFA for all people from NI to be Irish, British, or both. At least that’s how I understand it.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/derry-woman-is-british-until-she-renounces-citizenship-tribunal-told-1.4013861

the brits consider someone born in the NI automatically british unless they renounce their citizenship it seems

Even if they do not consider themselves British or even to have held said citizenship.

wonder if after brexit an irish citizen from NI would even be able to sponsor a spouse to live in NI.

i can basically never move back to the uk on the basis of being in a ltr - soon to be a marriage - with a non-eu citizen and being broke as fuck so I'm definitely sympathetic to this case, hope it works out for them

if this upcoming second marriage of mine fails like the last one I'm high-tailing it home before i can fall in love with another canadian

Seems wise

okay thanks for (sorta) clarification. You're kindof saying what I understood the case to be, its just weird to me that the Home Office have such latitude to take an action so aggressively undermining of the GFA. At least when number 10 does it there's an impetus that kindof makes sense. This seems way off the leash, but then comments by the migration minister (!) sortof show that this is a p uncontroversial within central government. Anyway, well done this lady.

She has won three cases against the home office so far iirc.

I assume the home office does act within the remit of no 10’s knowledge though? Notable that the challenges have been going on for four years and that Theresa May would have been the Home Secretary signing off on the initial one.

It’s a fucking awful case

The legal wrangle is now entering it’s fourth year. For the first two years, we lost our Freedom of Movement. The UK Home Office retained Jake’s passport with no legislative authority or policy to do-so. With these restrictions, Jake was unable to leave the country and had to turn down opportunities for work. The highest price, however, was losing the last two years of his grandmother’s life. Every request to see Jake’s grandmother in her progressively deteriorating condition was denied. When she passed away at home in Los Angeles, Jake’s request to attend the funeral was denied. It was only after increased media pressure that the Home Office eventually relented- couriering Jake’s passport back to us and allowing him a belated farewell to his late grandmother; a bitter-sweet farewell mired by remorse for not having been afforded an opportunity to say goodbye.

And this too:

Most troubling though is that our experience is not unique, but rather a window into a much deeper and wider issue occurring across our society. The reality being felt by myself and many in our community is that there is a price on Irish identity. A personal price that leaves many questioning what our identity is truly worth. A process referred to as Renunciation of British Citizenship is offered by the UK Home Office as a solution, but what does it really entail?

Firstly, the form is a legal document that begins with a declaration; “I am a British citizen”

It also requires substantial evidence to prove you have British citizenship. Birth in Northern Ireland constitutes automatic British citizenship for those seeking to realize their EU rights. For those renouncing, it is considered insufficient evidence of British citizenship. Considering that many individuals choosing this route do not consider themselves British in the first place, it can be an emotionally arduous process.

In addition, the process also costs £372!! No small fee for renouncing a citizenship which under the GFA should be entirely optional. There should be no levy on an Irish person to be recognised as Irish to live on our island! Anyone taking this route will also lose Freedom of Movement for up to 6 months while the Home Office processes your application.

Then there’s the uncertainty; nobody knows what the ramifications of renouncing are. In a recent case, the Home Office went so far as to question the residency rights of a citizen who had renounced their British citizenship. There is a very real possibility that going forward, anyone else choosing to renounce may be exposed to further impedance of their right to remain in their home. There’s also concern about the rights of the wider family as a whole, and the effect renouncing may have on them.

On the train back from Cork and looking forward to this person getting on to find their reserved seat. pic.twitter.com/hsX4LxPcp5

— Conor Wilson (@ConorWilson) September 16, 2019

:D

I think I know him.

Lmao

if his first name's Daniel i definitely know the cunt

thank you to my friends for booking my train seat pic.twitter.com/ZG3UAxmuYN

— 𝕭𝖚𝖈𝕶𝖋𝖆𝖘𝖙 𝕾𝖔𝖈𝖎𝖆𝖑𝖎𝖘𝖙 (@dgahk) September 16, 2019

hilarious guys

ye might quit tittering at the back there and realise that this is very common in my country, to allocate a secondary family name across the surname to differentiate from other cadet branches of a clan who may be particularly thickly laid out in any given area

in kerry youd get a differentiating string of grandparent names, so that a thos. o'sullivan would be known locally as tommy-paddy-mary, no surname required at all

midwest there's nothing unusual about hearing an entire unit as the rowty-kilbanes or the pheggy-kilbanes

its the latter usage here, and all youre seeing is the truncated identification utilising an honoured tradition, most likely its just john o'donnell, of the useless cunt o'donnells, postman would know him as johnny useless cunt and the barman/undertaker wouldnt know him at all unless you asked for john-mhaire-tim-bán.

the taxman has never heard of him

Otm. This is why we’ve never needed postcodes!

sher if we'd a had postcodes the brits woulda found us

Countries very much in character

The Hail Mary has been voted Ireland's favourite prayer at the National Ploughing Championships https://t.co/QrlsCurn2Z

— RTÉ News (@rtenews) September 19, 2019

confiteor topped the sight and sound poll but you can't put the culture into culchie

(xp) Came here to post that!

I can understand the logic - it’s the fastest & even more so in Irish

"Sure lookit" is hard to define exactly but "that's disappointing and you're not wrong but even though the world isn't fair and we don't always get our way, there are still good options and you have very good friends who like you" isn't too far off.

— Darach (@darachos) September 28, 2019

lishen dye think that the brits even understand whats being said here

See also “ah sure you know yourself”

this is it

just

sure

on its own tbh

when u grab yr knees the cup of tea before you leave

sure it is what it is

Ah

V excited for the Irish that they are getting represented in a major motion picture soon

sure to be a contender for the foreign language film oscar this year

arah shtop now, shtop

pity about you

and

what av ut

are underrated responses that offer the target the opportunity of perhaps considering their complaint (and possibly their own part in it) in a more universal context and if im honest the world'd be a better place if they were deployed and hit home a bit more

obsessed with this clip

And here it is in all its glory, with added “people who wish to remain British, can be returned back to the mainland” - like an ASOS delivery with the wrong address 😂😂 pic.twitter.com/hD5ezTYL3D

— Niall McGarry (@MrNiallMcGarry) October 4, 2019

No longer shocked to hear this kind of bullshit on telly/radio/the street anymore. The absolute state.

the vibes off him

he was beating his latvian missus around upstairs poolrooms in the late 90s for sure

Felt a bit teary at this
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EGgii3xXUAAhv2O?format=jpg&name=large

But not the first time they’ve expressed solidarity
https://img.resized.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-mural-showing-solidarity-with-rojava-unveiled-at-free-derry-corner.jpg

<3

Thread about the fucking disgraceful judgement today & thoughts on how Irish citizenship law works

Today's DeSouza judgment means people will be talking about Ireland's citizenship law & comparing it to UK's. Should we trust UK to adopt Ireland's legal approach or does UK's xenophobia make that a threat. Thread 1/

— Simon Cox (@SimonFRCox) October 14, 2019

#Brexit on 31 October a 'priority' for British government, says Britain’s Queen Elizabeth

— RTÉ News (@rtenews) October 14, 2019

Continuing my latest spate of posting to myself about citizenship issues

Irish/Polish lesbian couple literally unable to return to Ireland because their 15mo daughter is stateless: https://t.co/qQBLSRA7W2

— mary mac (@marykmac) October 14, 2019

They say sections two and three of the Children and Family Relationships Bill, which deals with donor-assisted reproduction, should be amended so all children born through IVF outside the State qualify for Irish citizenship. While the Bill was passed through the Oireachtas prior to the same-sex marriage referendum in 2015, parts two and three of the act have not yet been enacted.

“The Irish public believes all gay people have the same rights as straight people now, but we don’t,” Ms Deevy told The Irish Times by phone. “Nobody asks any questions to straight couples when their children are born abroad to an anonymous donor.”

Asked to comment on the couple’s situation, a department of health spokesman referred the query to the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA). A DFA spokeswoman said a person born outside the island of Ireland is an Irish citizen if born to an Irish-born, Irish citizen parent. As per the 1956 act, the State recognises the mother as the person who gave birth to the child, she said. The Department of Justice said it could not comment on individual cases.

Today I have dispatched the last piece of paper required before I can be pronounced Irish and the £6.20 it cost me to send it will be the best £6.20 I’ve ever spent.

I AM COMING HOME IRELAND!

(Thank you grandma who died 2 months before I was born. THANK YOU)

— Emma Kennedy (@EmmaKennedy) October 14, 2019

And here I was, thinking the child's best interests mattered above all.

Not posting to yourself, I'm seething too even if I don't post here often enough.

Yeah I take you & deems as given, I’ve long given up expectation non-Irish people give a fuck. Don’t think I got a single response in the UK politics thread about de Souza case.

I'm reading but don't think I have any opinions of worth tbh

I thought I'd posted something about EDS there but it might have been one of the many things I type and then don't post.

It is totally
- depressing how ready the UK govt apparently is to shred the GFA
- depressing that NI citizens will have different sets of rights depending on which citizenship they have
- depressing and weird that you get more rights by renouncing one citizenship than having dual citizenship (ironic that you now have more rights as a self-declared Irish citizen in NI, if it wasn't actual people's lives being played with it would be almost funny after all those years of gerrymandering and weird inheritance rules and so on)
- bad that you have to pay and sign something to affirm that you are a British citizen but don't want to be any more, rather than just, you know, affirming your right never to have been one...

...but I think De Souza also says that even having to sign something to the effect of the latter would be too much. Initially this seems fair -- why should you have to? especially for something as useful and fundamental as being able to have your spouse move over, rather than just a political statement -- but I had been wondering about something asked (not answered) in one of the replies on that Twitter thread, viz: if you aren't automatically regarded as a British citizen, and the UK govt (+ the "largest political party of the largest political designation" in the non-existent-for-1001-days Stormont assembly etc etc) would surely not think NI residents were Irish by default, would everyone in NI be stateless until such point as they apply for a passport? That can't be the case (or bad side-effects ahoy, I would've thought!), but is there any other way to provide this default neutrality?

This is probably a v dumb and naive reading of things though, please do take me apart - gently (mentally in Hedonism Bot voice thanks to bg's cat)

also sorry about the lesbian couple with stateless IVF baby thing, hadn't read about that, that is some bullshit

and sorry I don't know enough to have thoughts on the referendum re birthright citizenship but people smarter than me say removing that right was also some bullshit, so I'm going to go with assuming it probably is at least until I've bothered to read up on it (thoughts and good articles welcome, especially if the articles are brief, I'm afraid)