the worst thing about orchestras

I think they have too much money given their role in society, and ideally that money would be better distributed, maybe in the form of grants to organizations & individuals that are building more accessible arts-related things in the community

― change display name (Jordan), Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:02 PM (yesterday)

In a lot of cities, the symphonies (as well as the other members of the classic SMOB -- Symphony Museum Opera Ballet -- that constitutes high art infrastructure) have all instituted programs geared towards accessibility, diversity, bringing classical musicians into impoverished urban schools, commissioning new works by artists from marginalized groups, presenting existing works by under-recognized artists from marginalized groups, etc. They have a fear of mortality. They need to reproduce the means of production -- in general, their supporters and patrons are getting old and dying off and they are trying to recruit younger generations of audience members and benefactors. This is why you have things like the San Francisco Symphony collaboration with Metallica, and the significant amounts of high art funding bestowed upon DJ Spooky.

Basically, when you're talking about funding for symphonies, you have several sources of income:
1. program income: earned income from ticket buyers, subscribers, recording contracts, etc. which doesn't cover anywhere near the total operating expenses

2. unrelated earned income: this is stuff like investment income from their endowments (they generally have these), or things like, concession stands, cafes and bars, and like, rentals of their facilities for corporate parties and income from a parking garage -- when business people end up running arts orgs or sitting on boards, they tend to promote these types of activities, because they understand parking garages and rentals.

then you get into the donations and contributed income which come from different sources like:

3. government grants -- the symphonies end up getting larger government grants than smaller organizations because they have larger budgets and the government tends to be a bit conservative in terms of "responsibility" and often will only give grants up to a certain % of budget size.

4. grants from charitable foundations & trusts -- this is where you see the most "innovation" in philanthropic trends -- government grant criteria and processes tend to stay the same for very long periods of time. Priority shifts, that then cause the chain reaction of arts organizations shifting their programming and structure, tend to come from the private sector philanthropists

5. individual giving -- self-explanatory

Sund4r, we cool; just sayin that if the folx upthread are suggesting that communism would result in better conditions for music and musicians, the burden of proof is on them.

Also

In a lot of cities, the symphonies (as well as the other members of the classic SMOB -- Symphony Museum Opera Ballet -- that constitutes high art infrastructure) have all instituted programs geared towards accessibility, diversity, bringing classical musicians into impoverished urban schools

My own personal mother (a ballet teacher, violinist, and concertmaster) currently does all these things and more with a chamber orchestra in St. Louis.

Sarahell otm

My friend did the SFO/Metallica concert! I think that kind of collaboration is appropriate in many cities with a certain concert-going demographic. In general my shorthand for soliciting collaborators with symphonies in my own limited curatorial goes like this, when talking with the board entity: “lots of people read Wire magazine and/or Wire magazine covers artists that lots of people will leave their house to see perform with a symphony”— facile, but makes the point

*curatorial capacity

I didn't want to put everything in one voluminous post -- there's more (re: more "equitable" distribution of money)

So, outside of individual giving, which is pretty much up to the person giving the money what conditions they put on the donation, how much they give, etc. and there isn't really any mechanism in place to force them to change their giving habits, though I guess you could go to Jeff Bezos' mansion, put a gun to his head, and make him transfer a million dollars to the bank account of a radical jazz ensemble --

So this re-distribution would be coming from government and private institutions (this includes corporate giving -- they generally have a department or separate entity that handles this).

And of course they have rules and procedures -- that tend to benefit large institutions like the symphony. In order to be equitable, government grants have applications and criteria and points assigned to those criteria and whether you receive funding depends on your score. They also have staff that manage the grant programs including the application and selection processes. If you have a paid staff person whose full-time job is applying for grants, (e.g. a major symphony will have at least one) you are likely to be many steps ahead of organizations where this is being done by a volunteer or a person who is paid to write grants, but also does your website, PR, orders office supplies, and spends an hour on the phone with tech support because the photocopier keeps getting paper jams.

Private funders can be looser about criteria and points, but a lot of the ones that are more relaxed about procedure, that funding is often relationship-based. So, you are dealing with, scheduling meetings with these people, attending their events, basically it requires a time factor that someone who isn't paid to spend that time ... they are at a disadvantage. Not to mention class issues, and the standard white cis-male supremacy stuff.

In terms of giving money to individuals -- this is one of those things that doesn't happen, often because of the requirements of the tax code, and it is legally easier to give to an organization rather than an individual.

And I love the sound of it and hate the sound of drum kits in the hands and feet of 99% of drummers

Same, most configurations of, and approaches to, the modern drumkit are really boring! That's why I love electronic music (limitless sounds), as well as the adaptation of the European snare drum & bass drum (by black musicians) in New Orleans second line music, which both pre-dates the drumkit and is way more interesting to me.

That's why I love electronic music (limitless sounds)

Too bad 99.99% of electronic musicians choose one of about three sounds from that "limitless" palette...

great insight, great thread

^^^^^^ 1000%

FPing a lot of cunts here

you'll pry my Roland handclaps from my cold, dead fingers

sarahell this is all so illuminating, thank you!

The Soviet music landscape was so eager for rock that it embraced Billy fucking Joel as if he were a glass of water in the desert. That should tell you something.

― And the wind... cries... Larry (Ye Mad Puffin)

yep, america would never fall for a snake oil salesman like billy joel

sorry, i failed the "no-snark challenge", anyway sarahell thank you for making those informative posts, it's always nice to see someone who knows what they're talking about in a thread like this

Air-guitars are bad, but air-maestros are even worse.

Well it's been years since I've said something controversial enough on the internet to get piled on like that, who would have thought it would be about orchestras!

Air-guitars are bad, but air-maestros are even worse.

Ha, I sometimes air-conduct without realizing it. It's sort of like head-nodding, mostly just feeling the beat.

Air-guitars are bad, but air-mattresses are even worse.

Yeah, mine seems to have developed a leak. I blame the cat.

the worst thing about orchestras is when they attempt to "cut loose" or otherwise demonstrate that they're not actually all that stodgy and humorless, eg the last orchestra performance I went to, which ended with an absolutely teeth-grindingly bad and "cheeky" rendition of "Ain't Misbehavin'"

― Οὖτις, Friday, September 6, 2019 10:56 PM

LOLLL

Some of these things, like that, are bad tbf and they should feel bad

Rereading that post made me start a response thread:

The best thing about orchestras

that is bad, but not quite as bad as a white methodist church choir doing "down by the riverside" #scarredforlife

xpost

their association w/ the ruling class

xp: Lord, save us from suburban white people Catching The Spirit(TM)

if only they had!!

the worst thing about orchestras is when they attempt to "cut loose" or otherwise demonstrate that they're not actually all that stodgy and humorless, eg the last orchestra performance I went to, which ended with an absolutely teeth-grindingly bad and "cheeky" rendition of "Ain't Misbehavin'"

― Οὖτις, Friday, September 6, 2019 10:56 PM

Yeah this might in fact be the worst thing. When I was 10, and the obvious classical music idiot in my class, we had a field trip to see the orchestra and I sighed in smug enjoyment for the bulk of the concert. They finished with “something special” *wink wink* and it was either the theme to “Superman” or “Star Wars”, with a light show. My classmates (we were 10!) were so keenly aware of how corny and pandering the whole finale was and were elbowing me and grinning like “haha this is so stupid”— orchestras shouldn’t pander! It’s so ugly.

I am beyond baffled at this idea that orchestra shows are outrageously expensive. Granted, Cleveland is not a high-cost-of-living city, but its orchestra is unquestionably one of the best in the country. I'm looking at Yuja Wang's upcoming Rachmaninoff concert at the end of November, and tickets are available for as little as $21 in the balcony. I pay at least that, and often more, to see bands at larger venues in town like the Masonic Auditorium or Beachland Ballroom. (Courtney Bartnett tickets that went on sale Friday were $35.)

Not only that, but at the great majority of Cleveland Orchestra shows, under-18s get in free; and full-time high school, college, graduate and postgrad students can get tickets to nearly every show for $15; as a result, they have the largest percentage of under-25 audience of any orchestra in America.

I don't understand the frowning on applause between movements. In practice, it just means having to hear a wave of coughing instead.

Yeah, I'm p sure that the most expensive events at the National Arts Centre are the pop concerts ($145 CAD balcony seats for Sarah McLachlan vs $31 balcony seats for orchestra concerts, even e.g. featuring Joshua Bell in February). xp

Tbh, I usually do hear movements as distinct statements in themselves so I agree that it shouldn't be wrong to applaud for them.

I found the silence between movements very strange at a performance of Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony I saw. It's like these vast, vast crescendos, then...*cough cough* *rustle* *murmur* until the orchestra starts up again. I didn't want to be the only one leaping to my feet and wildly applauding though so I put up with it.

A good friend works in arts admin at the Lyr1c Opera in Chicago, looks like tickets start at $70 there. In Madison here, looks like it's similar for the good seats, but there are cheaper balcony options, yeah. I'm more shocked at the cost of big pop music concerts though.

(btw I've heard lots of stories of ridiculous diva-ish behavior via this friend, and that's def influenced my opinions, although I'm sure it's an unfair sample)

Worst thing about classical concerts imo is the weird issue a bunch of people seem to have with people coughing in the audience. There seems to be some perception, the basis of which I don't know, that people who cough are doing so to call attention to themselves and not because they need to cough.

Yeah, I'm p sure that the most expensive events at the National Arts Centre are the pop concerts ($145 CAD balcony seats for Sarah McLachlan vs $31 balcony seats for orchestra concerts, even e.g. featuring Joshua Bell in February). xp

(And, yeah, $15 day-of tickets for anyone aged 13-29; free tickets for the companion of someone in a wheelchair. In some ways, these are the most accessible events for a number of groups.)

Second-worst thing is the conservatism of p much every orchestra's repertoire, given everything that has been written for the medium.

On the other hand I can't think of any other setting in which coughing is so distracting. It's prob just the acoustics of the typical room, so normal coughing is more noticeable and we perceive it to happen more in that setting. But either way distracting loud coughing is forever associated with orchestras in my mind.

xxp

Orchestra halls sound terrible for jazz

The worst diva behavior I ever witnessed associated with an orchestra-driven performance came from Shawn Colvin

All of the singers from the Met we performed with were over-the-top gracious, relatable, wonderful people, to the point where several of them friended a bunch of us on Facebook and kept in regular touch, making a point to go out and visit with various choristers whenever they were in town on a gig with the BSO or someone else

In summation, singer-songwriters are the worst, opera singers are awesome

It's noticeable but I just accept it as part of the experience. Especially given the average age of most orchestra/classical audiences, and the fact that these concerts are among the most accessible events for the physically disabled, I don't see anything exceptional about it. People on classical music groups get so huffy about this. An otherwise magical concert pianist made a point of emphasizing how disrespectful she found audience coughing when I saw her, which was just wtf. xp re coughing

Yeah the sound of coughing is totally annoying but cynical theories about why it is happening are silly and dumb.

Second-worst thing is the conservatism of p much every orchestra's repertoire, given everything that has been written for the medium.

― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Monday, September 9, 2019 11:48 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This x1000. If my local orchestra (which is admirably accessible with $20 balcony tix) did some Webern, Schoenberg, or (especially) Penderecki, I'd be overjoyed.

Worst thing: how soloists seem to be expected to visibly and theatrically emote far more than section players.

the hall is all hushed and everything but isn't the agita re coughing partly because of the belief that this is a space where people can be prodded into leaving for the sake of others? so always in the back of someone's mind when they hear a cougher, they can be thinking, DECORUM REQUIRES YOU TO LEAVE, SIR

Exiting from the middle of a row during a concert clearly less disruptive to fellow audience members than coughing

Clapping between movements should be universally encouraged. It seems strange to read about certain movements, at their premiere, in history, making such a huge impression on the audience, that the audience demanded an immediate encore performance. How did this happen? I just don't get it. I think it's a modern affectation and one designed to... man, I wish there was a verb that worked here. The same thing that the Catholic church does. Imbues the doctrine with something confusing and demanding in order to keep the congregation off balance, to suggest that there are people in the room more enlightened and decorous than the proles. It feels like that.

It may amuse the court to note that, via mutual friends, I ended up hanging out all day at a spa with an opera singer who has won a couple Grammys.

(she was incredibly nice and chill, and I was very polite, we had a good time comparing notes about playing & preparing for gigs without actually talking about music)

ooh who was it