the worst thing about orchestras

Not that different.

Jordan, do you mainly just want more funding for non-orchestral musicians in the US or do you also want orchestral musicians to be punished somehow?

Or at the least defunded

xxp You said the fact that orchestras receive donations is due to a “bullshit high/low divide.” I’ve pointed out that (a) this funding is apparently the only way major orchestras can survive today, which is not true of jazz combos, rock bands, barbershop quartets, EDM guys, etc.; and (b) your “high-low” take further breaks down when you consider that orchestral music is taught in schools, enjoyed by many, and is learned/loved/appreciated by artists who work in many genres — and is arguably more universal than your counterexample of jazz, which (nothing against it) has a very highbrow/elite aura and is just as institutionally celebrated as “high art.”

32 violins but only one pair of maracas at most

I'm still struggling with "irrelevant art form". Can someone point out a relevant artform so I can better grasp the distinction?

Wow this thread got weird. All arts should be funded by the government. I’m not personally anti-union— I support the AFM! but the structure of paying out residuals cannot happen any more. Record labels do not have the infrastructure to even calculate that shit. Disney hands $1m to an orchestra to get them to work off contract. I’m not alone in feeling this way, the leaders of my local have written articles in the newsletter expressing the same sentiment.

It could be wrong, but I think that I read once that VDParks was partially responsible for the residual model when he worked at Warner? I could be wrong. Anyway this isn’t a case of “we need to give musicians less power” it’s that this model is actually currently untenable.

shitby

Fuck it all - teen pop and chud-rock for everyone!

Sounds like you hate democracy.

should have gone to cascadian black metal bands

― j., Sunday, September 8, 2019 3:05 AM (eight hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Right when I read this post, a dog howled in the distance.

I'm still struggling with "irrelevant art form". Can someone point out a relevant artform so I can better grasp the distinction?

https://news.avclub.com/the-smash-mouth-musical-exists-and-its-all-all-star-1829723236

lol

First of all, I'm not saying orchestras should be defunded, I would just like some parity when it comes to arts funding.

which is not true of jazz combos, rock bands, barbershop quartets, EDM guys, etc.

I disagree with this. Sure, it's easy to have one of these because the infrastructure costs are much lower, but nearly impossible to make it a career.

I'm still struggling with "irrelevant art form". Can someone point out a relevant artform so I can better grasp the distinction?

Idk, what was the last new work you went to see a full orchestra perform?

Not that this doesn't happen, but I don't hear about it, ever.

Ffs arts funding is such a minuscule part of any government’s budget, “wanting some say” is imo the wrong attitude (I.e. getting to say which bodies get funding) when instead we can just universally be asking for more funding across the board

I’d get into this fight abt BSS because that band received $1m of grants over a ten year period and people were annoyed and I’m like “no, give them more, give more to other bands, too”.

Anyway did you know that there are hundreds of orchestras across Finland? Every town has one. Finland has the same population as NYC. NYC now has one orchestra

Finland has simply failed to grasp that classical music is outmoded and irrelevant and elitist. It'll come around as soon as it accepts the civilizational supremacy of American pop culture.

The sole democratic art form, in case you were wondering.

Anyway did you know that there are hundreds of orchestras across Finland? Every town has one.

Citation needed.

https://fmq.fi/articles/orchestras-for-all

Thanks. Bit of hyppiäbole going on itt.

Idk, what was the last new work you went to see a full orchestra perform?

I generally only see orchestra concerts I’m performing in (#flex) but every major American symphony debuts commissioned pieces every year. Plus, this question implies that the only music worth hearing in performance is new music, which is a 100% bullshit stance regardless of genre.

That Finnish website makes a good case for the cultural importance of its (state-funded) orchestras.

this question implies that the only music worth hearing in performance is new music, which is a 100% bullshit stance regardless of genre.

Djp otm. You want to criticize me for not keeping up with new work? Okay, demonstrate that you've listened to everything there is from every previous century and we'll talk.

Indeed, this is true in all the arts. I have a friend who is a decently successful playwright, and I recently caught myself apologizing to him because, given my limited budget and time to go to the theater, I still actively want to go see Shakespeare. Then I thought, wtf? Shakespeare is fucking great a lot of the time. I should not be apologizing for liking what I like.

So if I am not aware of the latest, crunkest, twerkest trend, friend: have you listened to all of Telemann yet? If not, stfu.

My friend Erik routinely enters contests for new pieces for a variety of instruments and he often wins and has orchestral ensembles play them live.

But also yes DJP otm

That's kind of a consumerist way to approach art. I get being afraid of becoming rockist and everybody ignoring new music in lieu of championing the same five works until the end of time but yee gods, who cares even if an orchestra specializes in centuries old pieces?

"yo u get the new Mozart cassingle?"

Personally I'm most attracted to rhythm and texture in music, so orchestral music doesn't interest me that much tbh. And I've always been interested in new music for whatever reason. This should not come as a surprise to anyone who's ever read my posts or heard music I've been involved in.

Okay, demonstrate that you've listened to everything there is from every previous century and we'll talk.

Well, I've made a pretty good study of jazz.

"Mozart Cassingle" is the name of my Falco tribute band, btw

Personally I'm most attracted to rhythm and texture in music, so orchestral music doesn't interest me that much tbh.

Ok this is the most wtf sentence I've read in, er, weeks.

that makes it sound like orchestral music is gelatinous

Obv orchestras have some of the richest textural resources available and there is no music without rhythm. Jordan looks for a groove ime.

But Stravinsky, Bartók, American minimalism…

Beethoven's "Mothership Connection"

xxxp knowing Jordan's work and history helps there, it totally makes sense to me. dude is a drummer!

Jordan, totally cool for you to be interested in what you're interested in and to like what you like!

Indeed, for me, that's the point - extending the same privilege to other listeners who are interested in what they're interested in and who like what they like. Even when they're "wrong." Perhaps _especially_ when they're "wrong."

But we can still have useful and interesting discussion about what art gets lionized, what art gets dunding, what art has popular support, what art gets critical/cultural accolades.

Dunding? Funding obv

I'd call it a stretch to say that the orchestral writing of the first two keeps the kind of regular groove like you might find in New Orleans jazz or techno. American minimalism certainly does but usually not in orchestral writing. xp to pomenitul

It's not as regular, sure, which I suppose is a dealbreaker for some listeners.

Most of it feels rather gelatinous to me actually.

I like some Morton Feldman and Bartok that I've heard, for sure, but a deep pocket is not really the point, which is fine. And we're talking about working with a limited set of textures, also fine, but there's a whole world of other possibilities out there.

And I'm sure people can point to orchestral music that's been influenced by various folk music from around the world, but I would rather just listen to that music for the most part?

I really didn't think my opinions would be that controversial here, but I'm not trying to take away from anyone else's enjoyment, enjoy your orchestras!

xp

I mean, your first post was pretty damn bitter and aggressive. I initially parsed it as satire.

Pekka Kuusisto said “500” to me and I just went with it. Or maybe he said 50. It was a long convo about how great the orchestra scene was over there.

“Gelatinous” is actually a super accurate word to describe an orchestra imo! And I love the sound of it and hate the sound of drum kits in the hands and feet of 99% of drummers

Interestingly Soviet communism was pretty decent to orchestral music, opera, and especially ballet - but it wasn't so good at promoting/supporting rock, punk, or new wave acts. I can't speak to Soviet communism's record as regards jazz, dub, house, EDM, ska, or rockabilly. Nor can I speak to Vietnamese or Chinese Communists' approach to supporting avant-garde bluegrass.

Shostakovich might have had something to say about the decency of Soviet communism with regards to classical composers.

Comparatively!

You've heard of Shostakovich, Baryshnikov, Pavlova.

But there was no mid-60s Russian invasion of adorable guitar-playing lads from Leningrad. There was no Moscow branch of CBGBs. Bowie didn't record an album in Vladivostok.

The Soviet music landscape was so eager for rock that it embraced Billy fucking Joel as if he were a glass of water in the desert. That should tell you something.

No, I don't disagree; it was "pretty decent" that I was questioning. If you don't know it, btw, Sabrina Ramet's Rocking the State is a p decent introduction to the history of rock music politics in the East Bloc.

(Plastic People of the Universe and Breakout obv classic.)

i think the government should fund more trolls to antagonize message board posters, the jazz fans ant the idm fans and the taylor swift fans, it's unfair that only the gullible classical fans get a shot

Russia already on it.

I think they have too much money given their role in society, and ideally that money would be better distributed, maybe in the form of grants to organizations & individuals that are building more accessible arts-related things in the community

― change display name (Jordan), Saturday, September 7, 2019 1:02 PM (yesterday)

In a lot of cities, the symphonies (as well as the other members of the classic SMOB -- Symphony Museum Opera Ballet -- that constitutes high art infrastructure) have all instituted programs geared towards accessibility, diversity, bringing classical musicians into impoverished urban schools, commissioning new works by artists from marginalized groups, presenting existing works by under-recognized artists from marginalized groups, etc. They have a fear of mortality. They need to reproduce the means of production -- in general, their supporters and patrons are getting old and dying off and they are trying to recruit younger generations of audience members and benefactors. This is why you have things like the San Francisco Symphony collaboration with Metallica, and the significant amounts of high art funding bestowed upon DJ Spooky.

Basically, when you're talking about funding for symphonies, you have several sources of income:
1. program income: earned income from ticket buyers, subscribers, recording contracts, etc. which doesn't cover anywhere near the total operating expenses

2. unrelated earned income: this is stuff like investment income from their endowments (they generally have these), or things like, concession stands, cafes and bars, and like, rentals of their facilities for corporate parties and income from a parking garage -- when business people end up running arts orgs or sitting on boards, they tend to promote these types of activities, because they understand parking garages and rentals.

then you get into the donations and contributed income which come from different sources like:

3. government grants -- the symphonies end up getting larger government grants than smaller organizations because they have larger budgets and the government tends to be a bit conservative in terms of "responsibility" and often will only give grants up to a certain % of budget size.

4. grants from charitable foundations & trusts -- this is where you see the most "innovation" in philanthropic trends -- government grant criteria and processes tend to stay the same for very long periods of time. Priority shifts, that then cause the chain reaction of arts organizations shifting their programming and structure, tend to come from the private sector philanthropists

5. individual giving -- self-explanatory

Sund4r, we cool; just sayin that if the folx upthread are suggesting that communism would result in better conditions for music and musicians, the burden of proof is on them.

Also

In a lot of cities, the symphonies (as well as the other members of the classic SMOB -- Symphony Museum Opera Ballet -- that constitutes high art infrastructure) have all instituted programs geared towards accessibility, diversity, bringing classical musicians into impoverished urban schools

My own personal mother (a ballet teacher, violinist, and concertmaster) currently does all these things and more with a chamber orchestra in St. Louis.