the worst thing about orchestras

"too much money given their role in society"?

woooow.

While we’re at it, let’s get rid of all the actors

Oh Jordanpaws

also I would like it if chamber choirs were dissolved and replaced with holograms, money better spent IMO

Mercifully, we've got the free market to weed out useless art forms and ensure that pop remains ever triumphant.

the invisible hand of Phil Spector

scores of aspiring orchestral musicians put themselves through a grueling gauntlet of training and acculturation that instills in them the sense of being abject failures should they fail to attain one of the scarce permanent positions playing for a legit ensemble. many amazingly talented orchestral musicians really, sincerely hate themselves & (secondarily) the system they bought into!

Mercifully, we've got the free market to weed out useless art forms and ensure that pop remains ever triumphant.

― pomenitul

i'm sorry, i just woke up, did you say "free weed"?

worst thing about orchestras is that going to see them somehow always manages to put me to sleep even when they're a good orchestra playing exciting music that i love. what the hell is up with that?

on thursday night i saw Yuja Wang place rachmaninov's piano concerto no. 3 and it was like seeing van halen or something. just outrageous. she had this room of about 4500 people in the palm of her hand. sweepin us up, swoopin us down. if they'd replaced the french horns with bassoons or something it would have been perfect.

PLAY not place

this was it:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0008422

scores of aspiring orchestral musicians put themselves through a grueling gauntlet of training and acculturation that instills in them the sense of being abject failures should they fail to attain one of the scarce permanent positions

lol this is all highly educated career path aspirants now when their fields aren't treated as immediately monetizable (including scientists!)

Why should this one form of (increasingly irrelevant) music get such a disproportionate amount of institutional support though? Especially when most people can't even afford to go see it.

Jazz is considered 'institutionalized' at this point, although I think it's really in an in-between zone. Some big name jazz musicians might get included in the season's programming at a big arts organization, but jazz musicians don't get pensions or health insurance (unless they're professors at a university).

You can get into the symphony here for $30ish, comparable to any other concert, plus you get a seat!

I mean the solution to your complaints is communism, not tearing down the orchestra.

Like in any case where you perceive an unjust allocation of resources, I suggest you look into communism. As long as you’re like advocating remaking society.

Anyway the worst thing about the orchestra is not being able to clap for soloists mid-movement

the same thing that has given the orchestra a disproportionate amount of institutional support has also prevented you from being able to clap for soloists mid-movement!

orchestras should get rid of all those violins. that would save a lot of money and would make them sound less schmaltzy.

Why should this one form of (increasingly irrelevant) music get such a disproportionate amount of institutional support though?

Disproportionate to what? This article has a few points:

Orchestras don't have the opportunity to spread these costs over a large number of performances, either.

"Unlike a musical, which has a lot of set-up costs and can then run for a year and a half to cover the initial cost, an orchestra might spend two or three days in rehearsal and then do two or three performances — that's it!" says David Throsby, a distinguished professor of economics at Macquarie University.

Then there's the additional services most modern orchestras offer: education programs and school performances.

Regional tours require the organisation and expenditure of something like a military campaign — instruments must be transported with care, musicians must be housed and fed — but the venues are smaller and the ticket prices lower.

This 2016 report by the League of American Orchestras has some granular info on community involvement:

• In 2014, free attendance at orchestra performances, activities, and other musical events was at its highest point in the previous five-year period, and the lowest ticket prices offered were at their cheapest and most affordable level (OSR).
• In 2014, the 98 orchestras in our sample delivered almost 19,000 Education and Community Engagement performances, musical activities, and other events, deepening the experience of orchestral music for communities who would typically not otherwise engage with the symphony. Eighty-five percent of these events took place outside of the concert hall, including the 60% of the total that took place in schools (EdCE survey).

on thursday night i saw Yuja Wang place rachmaninov's piano concerto no. 3 and it was like seeing van halen or something. just outrageous. she had this room of about 4500 people in the palm of her hand. sweepin us up, swoopin us down. if they'd replaced the french horns with bassoons or something it would have been perfect.

― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand)

OK I am DONE with people shitting on french horns in this thread

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3Q_csDLMyk

whenever people start talking about busting unions i try and change the subject to police unions, can we at least agree that we should bust police unions

lol this is all highly educated career path aspirants now when their fields aren't treated as immediately monetizable (including scientists!)

i guess that is true! i went through the scientist version of that ritual (or i extricated myself from it before getting too deep into a phd program lol -- tho still at tremendous cost to my mental health!) so it's the most immediately obvious aspect of that world of classical music hopefuls, at least as far as i saw. and to me it seemed that what they go through is perhaps among the most intense and potentially devastating versions of that trajectory. i feel for them.

Disproportionate to what?

To pretty much all other music, which is left to rot in the marketplace.

Like in any case where you perceive an unjust allocation of resources, I suggest you look into communism. As long as you’re like advocating remaking society.

Sounds great! But given that rich people/endowments/etc are pouring money into sustaining this very particular tradition of Western classical music...for me, personally, it seems like an unwieldy and outmoded way of making music, and maybe that money could be better spent elsewhere!

Ok, I'm out. For a thread on the worst thing about orchestras, you all really love orchestras!

Orchestral music can’t survive at all in “the marketplace,” it relies on other support (that’s the point of the first article I posted). Which other forms of supposedly “rotting” music would like to see subsidized, and how? Guess you won’t answer, ‘cuz you’ve bounced.

I mean jazz would be the obvious next in line. But most music can't really survive very well either these days, at least not with any hope of being a professional. But I hear about people in other countries being more easily able to get grants to run venues, pursue an ambitious musical project, etc, and it sounds nice! And it does irritate me that in the U.S., that seems to be limited to a very specific sort of music and centered around a bullshit high/low culture divide.

Jazz, music of the people

literally yes

“high/low culture divide”

Just saw the most amazing Italian world-renowned composer Ludovico Einaudi play with 2 pieces in a living room! The amount of emotion and visions classical music can trigger literally IS life!! Just piano and strings and im THERE!!! Gaaaaaahh I LOVE MUSIC ✨✨✨ so inspired 😭

— Victoria Monét (@VictoriaMonet) June 14, 2019

Gotta suck being in an orchestra and having to learn all those John Williams scores.

I went to a music summer camp once and we had a newsletter that printed handwritten notes from the students and one said John Williams is the best composer of all time and the Editor angrily added "UHH, NO!!!"

Not sure what point you're trying to make there morris?

That lots of people love classical music, and orchestras also program many events with broad appeal. Check out the upcoming LAPhil calendar (just to use my local example): https://www.laphil.com/events/

(And my point w/the Victoria tweet was that the “divide” may be more in your head than reality, when it comes to different types of music.)

Taylor Swift a noted fan of John Luther Adams: https://www.seattletimes.com/entertainment/classical-music/pop-megastar-taylor-swift-donates-50000-to-seattle-symphony/

John Luther Adams is ambient

Ambient is classical.

Erik Satie invented ambient 100 years ago

The $ went to the orchestra. Inspired in large part by a performance of Become Ocean, which is scored for orchestra. Genre labels seem beside the point here tbh.

Kinda on Jordan’s side here meself. orchestras are absolutely a gross upper-class patronage thing

While jazz is institutionally ignored?

https://www.jazz.org/events/2019-20-season/
https://www.lacma.org/events-calendar?event_hub=Jazz+at+LACMA
https://www.thewright.org/component/itsocial/event/3367

LOL, no orchestras in the world are self-sustaining, pretty gross that they’re being kept alive via philanthropy and institutional support. Let classical music go bankrupt!

Yes, any art that the commercial marketplace won't support has no reason to exist. Fuck it all - teen pop and chud-rock for everyone!

Arguments about public funding are familiar and, I guess, understandable. Folks finding private philanthropy distasteful is less familiar. I mean, much of the arts is kept afloat by bequests etc in my neck of the woods. Is the argument still "it should have gone to hospitals" or whatever, re private donations?

should have gone to cascadian black metal bands

Presumably all Nazis.

I find it much more upsetting that rich people give money to hospitals. Like what the fuck?

easiest place to add a wing on something that lots of people will see the name of

Yeah but hospitals are the worst!!

(And my point w/the Victoria tweet was that the “divide” may be more in your head than reality, when it comes to different types of music.)

I wasn't talking about aesthetics, I was talking funding.

While jazz is institutionally ignored?

Jazz musicians get a gig, not a salary and benefits (aside from university professors, but that's a different thing).