the worst thing about orchestras

uh waht

maybe my perspective is skewed because I've been on stage with most of the orchestras I've heard and therefore am practically on top of the players but that is just hilariously, ludicrously wrong

go too far down that road and we end up with andre rieu and shit

Duke Ellington's Orchestra (or, as they were billed, Duke Ellington And His Famous Orchestra) was surely the most important and influential of the 20th century. There is no "worst thing" about it.

TBF I have definitely been to some orchestral performances where they have definitely been mererly going through the motions (cf. Henry Wood’s comments wrt Beethoven when he took over the proms), but an orchestra with passion is a truly wonderful thing. Last thing that really blew me away was Teodor Currntzis doing Beethoven’s 5th which was the very opposite of just phoning it in.

why do they always wear black, try some color, people

Why don't they play synths yo

Sometimes they do and it's lame (ie when a dance music person collaborates with an orchestra to get that grant money)

Also why does drummer not play blast beats

Insisting on doing, like, 'tributes' to Daft Punk or Lil Wayne or something

i opened this thread expecting at least one fingering/tonguing joke attempt.

Programming is an issue, for sure, but the worst thing about orchestras is that there are not enough of them.

Also the other worst thing about orchestras is that the AFM hasn’t reformed the same residuals mandate that originated in the early 70s, and it is impossible to feasibly hire a North American orchestra for recording as a result

Much to Prague’s benefit

Too much 19th century European music.

I used to use the Prague orchestra. They were good! I use another one now.

Honestly orchestras are a wonderful, living breathing thing. Along with "the piano" and "the organ" and "a choir" they are truly one of humanity's finest musical creations. I have no concept of why anyone would disparage an orchestra.

they still think lasers are cool

Sometimes they pay their players too much, but their players have an inflated sense of entitlement considering that they're involved in an irrelevant and dying art form only supported by largesse of rich people who are beholden to outdated cultural signifiers

The only one allowed to pull any stank faces is the conductor, and he's not facing us.

They're the aural mirror image of totalitarianism.

french horns are wonderful and underused

Proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fo2qIKsSj8

Forgot pt. II (video dates from YT's prehistory):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CNMpW8BwCQ

Hell yeah Ligeti really figured out some amazing things abt that instrument

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YblCUBsc584

(Skip ahead to 2:55 for the best part)

Fuck yeah, love me some

Hamburgisches Konzert

Used q instead of i for whatever reason. Whatever, it deserves to be INDENTED.

See also Messiaen ‘Appel Insterstellaire’

Or for romantic era total ass kicking, Schumann Konzerstuck for 4 horns and orchestra

*Interstellaire

classically-trained musicians are highly-specialised workers whose daily labour is built on decades of physically and mentally taxing practice, often unpaid for years before they make their first paycheque, and they deserve to be paid accordingly

But doing so doesn't entitle them to anything. You can say the exact same thing about jazz musicians, and that they 'deserve' to be paid accordingly, but they're definitely not.

I know tons of bitter jazz musicians, but I once had dinner with a number of long-tenured symphony orchestra musicians, and I've never since met a group that was so bitter, entitled, and seemingly lacking any affection at all for music or the process of making it. And these are people making six figures and working a few days a week. I mean, I know that if you get a bunch of professional musicians together there will be griping, but this was on another level.

When (as with the Vienna Philharmonic) they are reluctant to appoint women or ethnic minorities into their ranks. They didn't accept women until 1997.

Vienna tho.

they still think lasers are cool

LASERS ARE COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Six-figure salaries are surely not typical for most orchestras??

It is in Chicago/LA/NYC, I think. This was in Milwaukee, which starts lower, but these musicians had been there for decades.

Huh. Nice irk if you can get it, as the old joke goes.

When (as with the Vienna Philharmonic) they are reluctant to appoint women or ethnic minorities into their ranks. They didn't accept women until 1997.

― van dyke parks generator (anagram), Saturday, September 7, 2019 10:57 AM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

A discrimination lawsuit filed by the bassist and composer Art Davis against the New York Philharmonic in the '70s ultimately led to symphony orchestras instituting blind auditions, at least in the US.

It is in Chicago/LA/NYC, I think. This was in Milwaukee, which starts lower, but these musicians had been there for decades.

bg outed as a member of the Euroimperialist bourgeoisie by association.

Never in doubt tbh.

i go to the gallows with a clean conscience, secure in the knowledge that lol we’re all gonna die

xps: sure, in pounds.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/11/arts/music/chicago-symphony-orchestra-strike.html

itt: ilx0rs come out swinging against labour unions

I support unions, but it seems like a dinosaur of an institution where the compensation is way out of line with the demand and the money coming in.

Especially considering the almost total lack of institutional support for any other musicians in the U.S.

I'm sure everything is more equal in Canada and the EU

Why do they mostly just play what's written on a piece of paper in front of them? Odds are it's already been played and recorded many times before.

It'd be cool if they sometimes just, y'know, _jammed_ like yr blooz dudes do.

Like, instead of "Ladies and gentlemen, this is J.S. Beetzart's Camry in H minor, opus number Kmart 4337," could they ever be like "Hey this is a funk jam in B, keep it loose and follow me for the changes. I'll solo for eight bars then pass it on via eyebrow cues."

I support unions, but it seems like a dinosaur of an institution where the compensation is way out of line with the demand and the money coming in.

Especially considering the almost total lack of institutional support for any other musicians in the U.S.

Yep, good characterization of the entirety of non-classical music (which mostly lacks any semblance of hierarchical structure that would support collective bargaining, these days at least)

Jordan, what do you think orchestras should be doing with their money instead of wasting it on paying the musicians?

Some of these things, like that, are bad tbf and they should feel bad

Rereading that post made me start a response thread:

The best thing about orchestras

that is bad, but not quite as bad as a white methodist church choir doing "down by the riverside" #scarredforlife

xpost

their association w/ the ruling class

xp: Lord, save us from suburban white people Catching The Spirit(TM)

if only they had!!

the worst thing about orchestras is when they attempt to "cut loose" or otherwise demonstrate that they're not actually all that stodgy and humorless, eg the last orchestra performance I went to, which ended with an absolutely teeth-grindingly bad and "cheeky" rendition of "Ain't Misbehavin'"

― Οὖτις, Friday, September 6, 2019 10:56 PM

Yeah this might in fact be the worst thing. When I was 10, and the obvious classical music idiot in my class, we had a field trip to see the orchestra and I sighed in smug enjoyment for the bulk of the concert. They finished with “something special” *wink wink* and it was either the theme to “Superman” or “Star Wars”, with a light show. My classmates (we were 10!) were so keenly aware of how corny and pandering the whole finale was and were elbowing me and grinning like “haha this is so stupid”— orchestras shouldn’t pander! It’s so ugly.

I am beyond baffled at this idea that orchestra shows are outrageously expensive. Granted, Cleveland is not a high-cost-of-living city, but its orchestra is unquestionably one of the best in the country. I'm looking at Yuja Wang's upcoming Rachmaninoff concert at the end of November, and tickets are available for as little as $21 in the balcony. I pay at least that, and often more, to see bands at larger venues in town like the Masonic Auditorium or Beachland Ballroom. (Courtney Bartnett tickets that went on sale Friday were $35.)

Not only that, but at the great majority of Cleveland Orchestra shows, under-18s get in free; and full-time high school, college, graduate and postgrad students can get tickets to nearly every show for $15; as a result, they have the largest percentage of under-25 audience of any orchestra in America.

I don't understand the frowning on applause between movements. In practice, it just means having to hear a wave of coughing instead.

Yeah, I'm p sure that the most expensive events at the National Arts Centre are the pop concerts ($145 CAD balcony seats for Sarah McLachlan vs $31 balcony seats for orchestra concerts, even e.g. featuring Joshua Bell in February). xp

Tbh, I usually do hear movements as distinct statements in themselves so I agree that it shouldn't be wrong to applaud for them.

I found the silence between movements very strange at a performance of Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony I saw. It's like these vast, vast crescendos, then...*cough cough* *rustle* *murmur* until the orchestra starts up again. I didn't want to be the only one leaping to my feet and wildly applauding though so I put up with it.

A good friend works in arts admin at the Lyr1c Opera in Chicago, looks like tickets start at $70 there. In Madison here, looks like it's similar for the good seats, but there are cheaper balcony options, yeah. I'm more shocked at the cost of big pop music concerts though.

(btw I've heard lots of stories of ridiculous diva-ish behavior via this friend, and that's def influenced my opinions, although I'm sure it's an unfair sample)

Worst thing about classical concerts imo is the weird issue a bunch of people seem to have with people coughing in the audience. There seems to be some perception, the basis of which I don't know, that people who cough are doing so to call attention to themselves and not because they need to cough.

Yeah, I'm p sure that the most expensive events at the National Arts Centre are the pop concerts ($145 CAD balcony seats for Sarah McLachlan vs $31 balcony seats for orchestra concerts, even e.g. featuring Joshua Bell in February). xp

(And, yeah, $15 day-of tickets for anyone aged 13-29; free tickets for the companion of someone in a wheelchair. In some ways, these are the most accessible events for a number of groups.)

Second-worst thing is the conservatism of p much every orchestra's repertoire, given everything that has been written for the medium.

On the other hand I can't think of any other setting in which coughing is so distracting. It's prob just the acoustics of the typical room, so normal coughing is more noticeable and we perceive it to happen more in that setting. But either way distracting loud coughing is forever associated with orchestras in my mind.

xxp

Orchestra halls sound terrible for jazz

The worst diva behavior I ever witnessed associated with an orchestra-driven performance came from Shawn Colvin

All of the singers from the Met we performed with were over-the-top gracious, relatable, wonderful people, to the point where several of them friended a bunch of us on Facebook and kept in regular touch, making a point to go out and visit with various choristers whenever they were in town on a gig with the BSO or someone else

In summation, singer-songwriters are the worst, opera singers are awesome

It's noticeable but I just accept it as part of the experience. Especially given the average age of most orchestra/classical audiences, and the fact that these concerts are among the most accessible events for the physically disabled, I don't see anything exceptional about it. People on classical music groups get so huffy about this. An otherwise magical concert pianist made a point of emphasizing how disrespectful she found audience coughing when I saw her, which was just wtf. xp re coughing

Yeah the sound of coughing is totally annoying but cynical theories about why it is happening are silly and dumb.

Second-worst thing is the conservatism of p much every orchestra's repertoire, given everything that has been written for the medium.

― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Monday, September 9, 2019 11:48 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This x1000. If my local orchestra (which is admirably accessible with $20 balcony tix) did some Webern, Schoenberg, or (especially) Penderecki, I'd be overjoyed.

Worst thing: how soloists seem to be expected to visibly and theatrically emote far more than section players.

the hall is all hushed and everything but isn't the agita re coughing partly because of the belief that this is a space where people can be prodded into leaving for the sake of others? so always in the back of someone's mind when they hear a cougher, they can be thinking, DECORUM REQUIRES YOU TO LEAVE, SIR

Exiting from the middle of a row during a concert clearly less disruptive to fellow audience members than coughing

Clapping between movements should be universally encouraged. It seems strange to read about certain movements, at their premiere, in history, making such a huge impression on the audience, that the audience demanded an immediate encore performance. How did this happen? I just don't get it. I think it's a modern affectation and one designed to... man, I wish there was a verb that worked here. The same thing that the Catholic church does. Imbues the doctrine with something confusing and demanding in order to keep the congregation off balance, to suggest that there are people in the room more enlightened and decorous than the proles. It feels like that.

It may amuse the court to note that, via mutual friends, I ended up hanging out all day at a spa with an opera singer who has won a couple Grammys.

(she was incredibly nice and chill, and I was very polite, we had a good time comparing notes about playing & preparing for gigs without actually talking about music)

ooh who was it

Rhymes with Masha Mooke