the worst thing about orchestras

french horns. whenever they start up with their elegiac, wistful tones i stand up, throw down my hat and say 'fuck this shit'

THEY'RE ASSHOLES

they don’t pay their players enough

waste of space

don't think the conductor actually does anything

they can’t swing (except for swing orchestras)

Sometimes they pay their players too much, but their players have an inflated sense of entitlement considering that they're involved in an irrelevant and dying art form only supported by largesse of rich people who are beholden to outdated cultural signifiers

But they're good for movie soundtracks

there aren't enough of them

They glare at anyone who claps between movements

rosin dust all over the string section

french horns are awesome, i call shenanigans on this thread

orchestras in general are awesome

https://thebaffler.com/salvos/strike-with-the-band-wagner

They glare at anyone who claps between movements

They glare extra hard at anyone who claps on the off beat during movements.

pathetic beats

the worst thing about orchestras is when they attempt to "cut loose" or otherwise demonstrate that they're not actually all that stodgy and humorless, eg the last orchestra performance I went to, which ended with an absolutely teeth-grindingly bad and "cheeky" rendition of "Ain't Misbehavin'"

There are very few inputs to any of the senses that I like more than the sound of an orchestra.

Worst three things about them are

I will never get to write for one
I can’t afford to go live often
Uncanny valley quality simulations of them sound absolutely fucking terrible but will eventually take over 100%

The complete absence of any visual signs of emotional engagement with the music they're playing.

uh waht

maybe my perspective is skewed because I've been on stage with most of the orchestras I've heard and therefore am practically on top of the players but that is just hilariously, ludicrously wrong

go too far down that road and we end up with andre rieu and shit

Duke Ellington's Orchestra (or, as they were billed, Duke Ellington And His Famous Orchestra) was surely the most important and influential of the 20th century. There is no "worst thing" about it.

TBF I have definitely been to some orchestral performances where they have definitely been mererly going through the motions (cf. Henry Wood’s comments wrt Beethoven when he took over the proms), but an orchestra with passion is a truly wonderful thing. Last thing that really blew me away was Teodor Currntzis doing Beethoven’s 5th which was the very opposite of just phoning it in.

why do they always wear black, try some color, people

Why don't they play synths yo

Sometimes they do and it's lame (ie when a dance music person collaborates with an orchestra to get that grant money)

Also why does drummer not play blast beats

Insisting on doing, like, 'tributes' to Daft Punk or Lil Wayne or something

i opened this thread expecting at least one fingering/tonguing joke attempt.

Programming is an issue, for sure, but the worst thing about orchestras is that there are not enough of them.

Also the other worst thing about orchestras is that the AFM hasn’t reformed the same residuals mandate that originated in the early 70s, and it is impossible to feasibly hire a North American orchestra for recording as a result

Much to Prague’s benefit

Too much 19th century European music.

I used to use the Prague orchestra. They were good! I use another one now.

Honestly orchestras are a wonderful, living breathing thing. Along with "the piano" and "the organ" and "a choir" they are truly one of humanity's finest musical creations. I have no concept of why anyone would disparage an orchestra.

they still think lasers are cool

Sometimes they pay their players too much, but their players have an inflated sense of entitlement considering that they're involved in an irrelevant and dying art form only supported by largesse of rich people who are beholden to outdated cultural signifiers

The only one allowed to pull any stank faces is the conductor, and he's not facing us.

They're the aural mirror image of totalitarianism.

french horns are wonderful and underused

Proof:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fo2qIKsSj8

Forgot pt. II (video dates from YT's prehistory):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CNMpW8BwCQ

Hell yeah Ligeti really figured out some amazing things abt that instrument

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YblCUBsc584

(Skip ahead to 2:55 for the best part)

Fuck yeah, love me some

Hamburgisches Konzert

Used q instead of i for whatever reason. Whatever, it deserves to be INDENTED.

See also Messiaen ‘Appel Insterstellaire’

Or for romantic era total ass kicking, Schumann Konzerstuck for 4 horns and orchestra

*Interstellaire

classically-trained musicians are highly-specialised workers whose daily labour is built on decades of physically and mentally taxing practice, often unpaid for years before they make their first paycheque, and they deserve to be paid accordingly

But doing so doesn't entitle them to anything. You can say the exact same thing about jazz musicians, and that they 'deserve' to be paid accordingly, but they're definitely not.

I know tons of bitter jazz musicians, but I once had dinner with a number of long-tenured symphony orchestra musicians, and I've never since met a group that was so bitter, entitled, and seemingly lacking any affection at all for music or the process of making it. And these are people making six figures and working a few days a week. I mean, I know that if you get a bunch of professional musicians together there will be griping, but this was on another level.

When (as with the Vienna Philharmonic) they are reluctant to appoint women or ethnic minorities into their ranks. They didn't accept women until 1997.

Sund4r, we cool; just sayin that if the folx upthread are suggesting that communism would result in better conditions for music and musicians, the burden of proof is on them.

Also

In a lot of cities, the symphonies (as well as the other members of the classic SMOB -- Symphony Museum Opera Ballet -- that constitutes high art infrastructure) have all instituted programs geared towards accessibility, diversity, bringing classical musicians into impoverished urban schools

My own personal mother (a ballet teacher, violinist, and concertmaster) currently does all these things and more with a chamber orchestra in St. Louis.

Sarahell otm

My friend did the SFO/Metallica concert! I think that kind of collaboration is appropriate in many cities with a certain concert-going demographic. In general my shorthand for soliciting collaborators with symphonies in my own limited curatorial goes like this, when talking with the board entity: “lots of people read Wire magazine and/or Wire magazine covers artists that lots of people will leave their house to see perform with a symphony”— facile, but makes the point

*curatorial capacity

I didn't want to put everything in one voluminous post -- there's more (re: more "equitable" distribution of money)

So, outside of individual giving, which is pretty much up to the person giving the money what conditions they put on the donation, how much they give, etc. and there isn't really any mechanism in place to force them to change their giving habits, though I guess you could go to Jeff Bezos' mansion, put a gun to his head, and make him transfer a million dollars to the bank account of a radical jazz ensemble --

So this re-distribution would be coming from government and private institutions (this includes corporate giving -- they generally have a department or separate entity that handles this).

And of course they have rules and procedures -- that tend to benefit large institutions like the symphony. In order to be equitable, government grants have applications and criteria and points assigned to those criteria and whether you receive funding depends on your score. They also have staff that manage the grant programs including the application and selection processes. If you have a paid staff person whose full-time job is applying for grants, (e.g. a major symphony will have at least one) you are likely to be many steps ahead of organizations where this is being done by a volunteer or a person who is paid to write grants, but also does your website, PR, orders office supplies, and spends an hour on the phone with tech support because the photocopier keeps getting paper jams.

Private funders can be looser about criteria and points, but a lot of the ones that are more relaxed about procedure, that funding is often relationship-based. So, you are dealing with, scheduling meetings with these people, attending their events, basically it requires a time factor that someone who isn't paid to spend that time ... they are at a disadvantage. Not to mention class issues, and the standard white cis-male supremacy stuff.

In terms of giving money to individuals -- this is one of those things that doesn't happen, often because of the requirements of the tax code, and it is legally easier to give to an organization rather than an individual.

And I love the sound of it and hate the sound of drum kits in the hands and feet of 99% of drummers

Same, most configurations of, and approaches to, the modern drumkit are really boring! That's why I love electronic music (limitless sounds), as well as the adaptation of the European snare drum & bass drum (by black musicians) in New Orleans second line music, which both pre-dates the drumkit and is way more interesting to me.

That's why I love electronic music (limitless sounds)

Too bad 99.99% of electronic musicians choose one of about three sounds from that "limitless" palette...

great insight, great thread

^^^^^^ 1000%

FPing a lot of cunts here

you'll pry my Roland handclaps from my cold, dead fingers

sarahell this is all so illuminating, thank you!

The Soviet music landscape was so eager for rock that it embraced Billy fucking Joel as if he were a glass of water in the desert. That should tell you something.

― And the wind... cries... Larry (Ye Mad Puffin)

yep, america would never fall for a snake oil salesman like billy joel

sorry, i failed the "no-snark challenge", anyway sarahell thank you for making those informative posts, it's always nice to see someone who knows what they're talking about in a thread like this

Air-guitars are bad, but air-maestros are even worse.

Well it's been years since I've said something controversial enough on the internet to get piled on like that, who would have thought it would be about orchestras!

Air-guitars are bad, but air-maestros are even worse.

Ha, I sometimes air-conduct without realizing it. It's sort of like head-nodding, mostly just feeling the beat.

Air-guitars are bad, but air-mattresses are even worse.

Yeah, mine seems to have developed a leak. I blame the cat.

the worst thing about orchestras is when they attempt to "cut loose" or otherwise demonstrate that they're not actually all that stodgy and humorless, eg the last orchestra performance I went to, which ended with an absolutely teeth-grindingly bad and "cheeky" rendition of "Ain't Misbehavin'"

― Οὖτις, Friday, September 6, 2019 10:56 PM

LOLLL

Some of these things, like that, are bad tbf and they should feel bad

Rereading that post made me start a response thread:

The best thing about orchestras

that is bad, but not quite as bad as a white methodist church choir doing "down by the riverside" #scarredforlife

xpost

their association w/ the ruling class

xp: Lord, save us from suburban white people Catching The Spirit(TM)

if only they had!!

the worst thing about orchestras is when they attempt to "cut loose" or otherwise demonstrate that they're not actually all that stodgy and humorless, eg the last orchestra performance I went to, which ended with an absolutely teeth-grindingly bad and "cheeky" rendition of "Ain't Misbehavin'"

― Οὖτις, Friday, September 6, 2019 10:56 PM

Yeah this might in fact be the worst thing. When I was 10, and the obvious classical music idiot in my class, we had a field trip to see the orchestra and I sighed in smug enjoyment for the bulk of the concert. They finished with “something special” *wink wink* and it was either the theme to “Superman” or “Star Wars”, with a light show. My classmates (we were 10!) were so keenly aware of how corny and pandering the whole finale was and were elbowing me and grinning like “haha this is so stupid”— orchestras shouldn’t pander! It’s so ugly.

I am beyond baffled at this idea that orchestra shows are outrageously expensive. Granted, Cleveland is not a high-cost-of-living city, but its orchestra is unquestionably one of the best in the country. I'm looking at Yuja Wang's upcoming Rachmaninoff concert at the end of November, and tickets are available for as little as $21 in the balcony. I pay at least that, and often more, to see bands at larger venues in town like the Masonic Auditorium or Beachland Ballroom. (Courtney Bartnett tickets that went on sale Friday were $35.)

Not only that, but at the great majority of Cleveland Orchestra shows, under-18s get in free; and full-time high school, college, graduate and postgrad students can get tickets to nearly every show for $15; as a result, they have the largest percentage of under-25 audience of any orchestra in America.

I don't understand the frowning on applause between movements. In practice, it just means having to hear a wave of coughing instead.

Yeah, I'm p sure that the most expensive events at the National Arts Centre are the pop concerts ($145 CAD balcony seats for Sarah McLachlan vs $31 balcony seats for orchestra concerts, even e.g. featuring Joshua Bell in February). xp

Tbh, I usually do hear movements as distinct statements in themselves so I agree that it shouldn't be wrong to applaud for them.

I found the silence between movements very strange at a performance of Messiaen's Turangalila Symphony I saw. It's like these vast, vast crescendos, then...*cough cough* *rustle* *murmur* until the orchestra starts up again. I didn't want to be the only one leaping to my feet and wildly applauding though so I put up with it.

A good friend works in arts admin at the Lyr1c Opera in Chicago, looks like tickets start at $70 there. In Madison here, looks like it's similar for the good seats, but there are cheaper balcony options, yeah. I'm more shocked at the cost of big pop music concerts though.

(btw I've heard lots of stories of ridiculous diva-ish behavior via this friend, and that's def influenced my opinions, although I'm sure it's an unfair sample)

Worst thing about classical concerts imo is the weird issue a bunch of people seem to have with people coughing in the audience. There seems to be some perception, the basis of which I don't know, that people who cough are doing so to call attention to themselves and not because they need to cough.

Yeah, I'm p sure that the most expensive events at the National Arts Centre are the pop concerts ($145 CAD balcony seats for Sarah McLachlan vs $31 balcony seats for orchestra concerts, even e.g. featuring Joshua Bell in February). xp

(And, yeah, $15 day-of tickets for anyone aged 13-29; free tickets for the companion of someone in a wheelchair. In some ways, these are the most accessible events for a number of groups.)

Second-worst thing is the conservatism of p much every orchestra's repertoire, given everything that has been written for the medium.

On the other hand I can't think of any other setting in which coughing is so distracting. It's prob just the acoustics of the typical room, so normal coughing is more noticeable and we perceive it to happen more in that setting. But either way distracting loud coughing is forever associated with orchestras in my mind.

xxp

Orchestra halls sound terrible for jazz

The worst diva behavior I ever witnessed associated with an orchestra-driven performance came from Shawn Colvin

All of the singers from the Met we performed with were over-the-top gracious, relatable, wonderful people, to the point where several of them friended a bunch of us on Facebook and kept in regular touch, making a point to go out and visit with various choristers whenever they were in town on a gig with the BSO or someone else

In summation, singer-songwriters are the worst, opera singers are awesome

It's noticeable but I just accept it as part of the experience. Especially given the average age of most orchestra/classical audiences, and the fact that these concerts are among the most accessible events for the physically disabled, I don't see anything exceptional about it. People on classical music groups get so huffy about this. An otherwise magical concert pianist made a point of emphasizing how disrespectful she found audience coughing when I saw her, which was just wtf. xp re coughing

Yeah the sound of coughing is totally annoying but cynical theories about why it is happening are silly and dumb.

Second-worst thing is the conservatism of p much every orchestra's repertoire, given everything that has been written for the medium.

― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Monday, September 9, 2019 11:48 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This x1000. If my local orchestra (which is admirably accessible with $20 balcony tix) did some Webern, Schoenberg, or (especially) Penderecki, I'd be overjoyed.

Worst thing: how soloists seem to be expected to visibly and theatrically emote far more than section players.

the hall is all hushed and everything but isn't the agita re coughing partly because of the belief that this is a space where people can be prodded into leaving for the sake of others? so always in the back of someone's mind when they hear a cougher, they can be thinking, DECORUM REQUIRES YOU TO LEAVE, SIR

Exiting from the middle of a row during a concert clearly less disruptive to fellow audience members than coughing

Clapping between movements should be universally encouraged. It seems strange to read about certain movements, at their premiere, in history, making such a huge impression on the audience, that the audience demanded an immediate encore performance. How did this happen? I just don't get it. I think it's a modern affectation and one designed to... man, I wish there was a verb that worked here. The same thing that the Catholic church does. Imbues the doctrine with something confusing and demanding in order to keep the congregation off balance, to suggest that there are people in the room more enlightened and decorous than the proles. It feels like that.

It may amuse the court to note that, via mutual friends, I ended up hanging out all day at a spa with an opera singer who has won a couple Grammys.

(she was incredibly nice and chill, and I was very polite, we had a good time comparing notes about playing & preparing for gigs without actually talking about music)

ooh who was it

Rhymes with Masha Mooke