the jeffrey epstein memorial poll and conspiracy-mongering thread

What I'm getting at is, we know there was a pedophilia ring operating. That's bad enough. Focusing on all the "symbols" and stuff just give it this supernatural or horror movie element that (1) it really doesn't need and (2) kind of render the whole thing cartoonish and distract from the much more real and, in some senses, ordinary horror. Which I get, the guy had a fucking temple on his island, but still, unless you actually believe in Satan, it's almost beside the point.

Yeah, I agree, and the other thing is that this cartoonish evil might even be it's own sort of cover up, meant to get Epstein to look weird and kitchy, rather than an exploitive pedophile. But for me then that becomes it's own kind of horror, the forethought that goes into that kind of cover up. But that's not how it's reported.

Honestly without the eccentricity the case would probably fall out of the discourse entirely so I say talk it up

i feel like the whole "this paedophile spent lots of time with some of america's most prominent men including half of the presidents of the last quarter century" is "interesting" enough on its own

Honestly without the eccentricity the case would probably fall out of the discourse entirely so I say talk it up

― Simon H., 30. august 2019 21:48 (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Nah, it got back into the discourse through the work of Julie K Brown, and those articles didn't play up the eccentricity at all.

Maybe, but shit like the temple, that MMA guy interview, and the Eyes Wide Shut connections are keeping it there.

is it insane that I don't care about any of this? Simon and Fred seem to care a lot which is a good indication I shouldn't care about this at all, but I'm not positive

there's only a few hundred (or more) alleged victims and a few former and current heads of state involved so

*furiously tries to formulate take*

Maybe, but shit like the temple, that MMA guy interview, and the Eyes Wide Shut connections are keeping it there.

― Simon H., 30. august 2019 21:57 (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I've literally only heard about Eyes Wide Shut, and that's because Eazy posted about it. It's not at all what I see people talking about. Unlesss MMA means something else than Mixed Martial Arts?

there's only a few hundred (or more) alleged victims and a few former and current heads of state involved so

― Simon H., Friday, August 30, 2019 1:04 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I mean the actual crimes are obviously bad but what does it profit me to pay attention to it now instead of reading about it in a book in seven or ten years

He fucked a bunch of kids and the guy who was secretary of Labor until last month gave him a sweetheart deal?

what does it profit me to pay attention to it now instead of reading about it in a book in seven or ten years

idk what to tell you, seems like this would apply to....the vast majority of topics

including the trump presidency

Yeah, is this like from the point of view of getting laid at parties, or..?

I thought we already covered that topic.

(sorry)

idk what to tell you, seems like this would apply to....the vast majority of topics

― Simon H., Friday, August 30, 2019 1:19 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

including the trump presidency

― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Friday, August 30, 2019 1:23 PM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

this is how I treat the trump presidency fwiw

I'm in no way the "ahem, you mean ephebophile guy" and think we should be considering any predation on youth equally repulsive but that is in no way the way any of these guys, or a large swath of society, has thought about the exploitation of girls and the larger idea that a lot of people still refuse to grasp is that the commodification of teen girls is inherently wrong

It's the same mindset that means there's no cognitive dissonance between the same people saying "oh, he always had girls around" or "Jeff would hook these guys up with girls" and immediately referring to the same exploited people as "young women" as soon as it's implied something wrong occurred

There's a lie that the perceived sexual attractiveness of these teen children, and the value placed on that attraction by lechs like Epstein, somehow means that they had some sort of power. And the language used around that attraction is always phrased as if the older, exploitative man has lesser agency. It's always "he couldn't help himself" or "I just *had* to grab her" or whatever other disgusting construction exists. And it goes hand-in-hand with language blaming victims, claims that a teen is able to "lead on" an adult or a claim that if they "didn't really want" to be exploited, they'd have gone to authorities, parents, etc. -- and we know how effective that is.

I think pinning the broader problem of the objectification and commodification of girls' sexuality on extremely exploitative and powerful people like Epstein and treating this case as extreme doesn't help. Yes, he was involved in and an enabler for some completely horrible things. At the same time, the surface level of what he was doing (surrounding himself with girls who may have seemed of consenting age, using access to an environment with lots of young women as a perk) sits right on the edge of what a large swath of culture has deemed if not acceptable, within the bounds of normal behavior.

We're to the point where society is getting much better at questioning the inherent power dynamics that can lead to exploitation when it comes to age, workplace reporting, student/instructor relationships, etc. but the exploitation of these things is still too-often shrugged off.

I think, to jim's point, it's "interesting" that he spent time with presidents, but at the same time, these are men who we know exploited their power to assault or coerce women in a completely open (or publicly revealed) way and while the public disapproves, many people are willing to shrug it off as a lesser sin. I don't think any information is going to put Bill Clinton in a room with a fifteen year old he knowingly exploited, but if Epstein's enabling means we end up seeing pictures of a woman he "thought was eighteen" sitting in his lap, I'm going to be disgusted and not at all surprised.

All of this depresses me, but I'm sadly past being shocked. Obviously all the leads stemming from the Epstein case should be run down and offenders should be prosecuted, but I'm worried that for too many people, the concentration is going to be on Epstein as a completely outlier sicko and the line of what's acceptable won't change for most.

idk I won't shit up your thread I'm just agog at all the pepesilvia.jpg that seems to be going on xps

wow mh v otm and much smarter than I can be during business hours

I think the only reason to make the pedophile/ephebophile distinction is in the application of societal change and not moral judgment, because both are fucked up but only one relies on the pervasive idea that there's some notion that for girls there is no real period of adolescence and that there's a near-overnight granting of adult social and sexual agency.

Our society has some very fucked up ideas about who is allowed to have an adolescence and how long that lasts!

thanks silby! I'm still in run-on repetitive sentence mode but I haven't had to expend too much brainpower on work this week and I've only just returned from vacation

I mean the actual crimes are obviously bad but what does it profit me to pay attention to it now instead of reading about it in a book in seven or ten years

the likelihood that he was very un-stealthily murdered in prison, about a year after the sitting president, to whom he was connected, burbled approvingly about a US journalist being sawed to death inside a consulate, bcz said journalist had embarrassed a despot, is a data point worth noting

if you are not waiting seven years to read about the president, shrug

I'm also a regular traveller on the "it's valuable to assess the power violations and motivating pathology between raping small children, trafficking teenagers, and assaulting adult women, as sometimes different" train, good post mh

I have no clue if that’s sarcastic

sic I think mh’s point is that the sexual exploitation of postpubescent girls is basically acceptable in our culture, and that a fixation on the powerful men and the conspiracy involved isn’t actually reckoning with that

My point is that the news is basically a slot machine, suspending the customer in a state of modulated anxiety, dripping out slow poison at a steady clip with just enough exciting moments to keep you plugging in quarters, and I no longer care to engage.

The difference between this thread and threads debating theories about Lost is no teenagers were raped to bring you ABC’s Lost

No sarcasm at all! There are hundreds of horrible aspects about, around & connected to these issues & focusing especially on any one of them sadly lessens reckoning with many others

But I don’t want to derail this thread by bringing more examples in

u see

xxxpost

silby I get it, I stopped reading or listening to news media for about five years out of pure horrified despair during Howard’s second term

turned out this didn’t actually stop the news from happening, unfortunately

Until yesterday I would have said the Epstein case might signal a broader rethinking of powerful men using their status to have sex with underage girls, but I just read the reviews for the new Polanski film, and that doesn't seem to be true.

I think it will have some ripple effects -- there will still be Polanskis and Epsteins in the world but maybe some of their borderline enablers will be less likely to just sit back and say "oh, there goes that guy doing his thing." Esp in combination with #metoo.

great post mh.

As for aesthetic crimes,

The entrance hall is decorated not with paintings but with row upon row of individually framed eyeballs; these, the owner tells people with relish, were imported from England, where they were made for injured soldiers.

^ austerity measures went further than I'd thought

Anyway, r we moving on from 'he killed himself' as a respectable take lol

No. The will transferring the estate to his brother is 2 days before Epstein's death. The media Ghislane disclosures were a day or two before, too.

These could imply that Epstein was aware of plans afoot to off him, but they're also consistent with suicide, or my pet theory of assisted suicide.

I don't think it can be ruled out -- it's not like it would be odd for someone in his position, accused of his crimes, to want to kill himself rather than stand trial, it's just that there's also so much to suggest otherwise.

this collection of scumbags my lord https://nypost.com/2019/09/02/jeffrey-epsteins-model-scouting-pal-has-disappeared-without-a-trace

That can’t be a recent photo, unless all the blood sacrifices actually work.

Anonymous fellow hires lawyers to write 7-page letter arguing Epstein-related materials that will cause reputational harm to “non-parties” ought to remain sealed forever. https://t.co/KbStu8B2d0

— southpaw (@nycsouthpaw) September 4, 2019

here we go again

Ghislaine Maxwell’s attorney alleges a still-sealed trove of documents could implicate “hundreds of other people” in the Jeffrey Epstein case. https://t.co/Xn4VEa20YS

— Vicky Ward (@VickyPJWard) September 4, 2019

Ronan Farrow just dropped a big bomb on Ito and the Media Lab

https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/how-an-elite-university-research-center-concealed-its-relationship-with-jeffrey-epstein

Ito resigning.

great timing on that new Bill Gates doc.

As with the Polanski and Weinstein cases I seem to meet a lot of people who are under the impression these men simply liked going to excessive, debauched parties, which (so people maintain) is what one does, and what one would do, if one was in showbiz and/or had a lot of money.

It's disturbing: these people can't seem to tell the difference between excess and abuse.

Plus, you don't have to go to an exclusive millionaire sex party to witness an example of someone who is having sex not because they want to but because they need money or are being controlled or intimidated. That could be the person who sits next to you at work. So really, the blindness to what this dude and his buddies actually were doing, the rhetoric of it was just wild times and high jinks, is weak and troubling imo.

reminder to self: don't invest with or take money from assholes

— Joi Ito (@Joi) March 12, 2008

whoops