Quentin Tarantino's Manson murders movie

since he broke the dam with

Once Upon is his first diegetic radio film since Pulp & Dogs

I understand you drew a line there...What I'd say then--and you can argue or rationalize this a million ways, but it all comes down to personal taste--is that there's a huge gap between how inspired the Reservoir Dogs soundtrack is and how comparatively ordinary Hollywood's is. Both, as you point out, are diegetic. Setting yourself that parameter does not rule out coming up with something as mind-bending as the way "Stuck in the Middle" or "Hooked on a Feeling" are used in Reservoir Dogs.

For me. If you think there's music in Hollywood that has the same kind of impact, that's great. I wish I felt the same way.

“I’ve Got A Name” in Django was pretty moving.

naw the Once song selections (bar Summertime) were unremarkable pop music to me, vs the "what the heck is this" effect of Dogs, we're totally on the same page. but he's doing something different now! Dogs and Pulp (and Jackie? I know she's into her record collection, but iirc the 110th St moment is used as score, not played in-scene) are iirc totally presented as diegetic.

KB1 has RZA score but is mostly nicked from other scores, KB2 deliberately accepted a Robert Rodriguez score for $1 as the only thing to distinguish it as a separate film* but is likewise mostly stock. then he continued primarily lifting existing scores, with the odd existing song, until Once. His previous diegetic radio music was all vintage material being played in-fiction as nostalgia - K-Billy's Sounds Of The Seventies in Dogs, Urge Overkill covering '70s Neil Diamond in Pulp, 1950s-1971 songs in the 1971 Vanishing Point car in Death Proof.

Once is his first radio-era period piece, and while he's almost exclusively (caveat White Stripes in H8ful) used music from his childhood before, this time he's limited himself via research to songs played on the IRL radio station on actual 1969 tapes (although there's one cheat I found last time this came up itt).

This is a fun thing about him as an auteur: despite such a short filmography, there are easily readable phases he goes through, and we can see him refine tropes and then dump them once he's used them effectively. The pop-culture overload of Dogs/Romance/Killers gets dropped for the maturity of Jackie Brown. The revenge film run gets more overblown through Bill -> Proof -> Basterds -> Django, he compresses to a chamber piece in H8ful, then drops it but reworks the Basterds element to much greater effect in Once. He plays with westerns for a while, figures he's put his spin on it, but needs to shake the influence off by channeling his TV western viewing directly into Once (and apparently is showing longer Bounty Law excerpts in the pre-show at New Bev screenings - plus he says he has ten full episode scripts).

The sampling old scores (plus a few minutes of new stuff by a friend) phase wore out by H8ful, so he asked Morricone for a full score. Instead Morricone said "I like the screenplay but look I've only got time to write a theme, how about you pick from the orchestral The Thing music that Carpenter ignored?," then ended up delivering two pieces a total of 25 minutes long as the "theme" iirc from the DGA podcast.

Once's radio music is w/e to me as songs (as I said upthread when Veg wrote her great blog of a different opinion) but absolutely works as texture of what was in these characters' lives on those three days.

(And everyone's different! Rick doesn't really gaf about music that we can tell, Tate and her entourage banter about the poppiness of Paul Revere, go-with-the-flow Cliff is soundtracked by what happens to flow out of the radio, and the creepy crawlers are enraged by the late-night listening of Cielo Drive residents -- possibly a tiny nod toward their home listening being Charlie's own songs played on an acoustic guitar while he looks into their eyes. Music too real and pure to have been accepted by sell-outs like Doris Day's son.)

I've had a few drinks lads

also I went to see Basterds for the second time last night, in honour of its placing in the ILE 2009 poll, and the Bowie / Moroder comes in much earlier than I recalled. characters have already discussed an assassination attempt on Goebbels & associates, but this sudden, dramatic intrusion of achronology presages the film's overturning of history.

Are any of those four associated with (or even used in) other films?

per IMDB: Delfonics' Didn't I in two 1991 films, Bacon/Fiorentino/Malcatraz vehicle Queens Logic and Robert Townsend/Keenan Wayans joint The Five Heartbeats; Tennessee Stud in Demme's Melvin & Howard, 1980.

Learn something new every day--had no idea "Tennessee Stud" was in Melvin and Howard, one of my favourite films from that era (musically, too, for "Fortunate Son" and "Satisfaction"). I'm not sure if I ever saw it again after Jackie Brown came out, but that's 22 years, so I have to believe I did somewhere along the way. Must have missed it. (Its use in Jackie Brown, with Ordell sitting in his car outside Jackie's house as Max pays her a visit, is terrifying.)

but this sudden, dramatic intrusion of achronology presages the film's overturning of history.

Yeah, that's something I loved about it. I'm trying to think of another film that does that, a period film set in the (relatively) distant past scored by a distinctly futuristic/"modern"/contemporary pop song (that wasn't written for the film).

The "Tennessee Stud" from Melvin and Howard is the Eddy Arnold version. Johnny Cash's version from Jackie Brown was recorded years later as part of The American Recordings w/Rick Rubin.

“I’ve Got A Name” in Django was pretty moving.

― ... (Eazy), Friday, August 23, 2019 10:55 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

^loved this

I'm trying to think of another film that does that, a period film set in the (relatively) distant past scored by a distinctly futuristic/"modern"/contemporary pop song (that wasn't written for the film).

Not a film but this was like Peaky Blinders' whole thing for awhile

Obvious example (which, after staying away from it forever, finally watched last year and liked a lot): Sofia Coppola's Marie Antoinette.

New Order, Siouxsie & the Banshees, Gang of Four...it's completely nuts, in a good way.

That’s a pretty good one.

A knights tale

Cough cough Moulin Rouge

I hadn't read the Billboard interview with Mark Lindsay until just now and didn't realize he lived at the Cielo Drive house with Terry Melcher and met Manson there ... that adds a spooky vibe to the Paul Revere & the Raiders songs in the soundtrack

I'm trying to think of another film that does that, a period film set in the (relatively) distant past scored by a distinctly futuristic/"modern"/contemporary pop song (that wasn't written for the film).

Something kind of related to this is the 70s-upped versions of Classical pieces in Lisztomania.

related in the sense that it's the opposite and also very bad

Those are all good examples, though aren't the soundtracks to a Knight's Tale and Mary Antoneitte, stuff like that, wall to wall modern songs? That's the gimmick, right? I love the Bowie song in Basterds because it sticks out.

there's a small amount of music-of-the-period in marie antoinette (harpsichords and such)

related in the sense that it's the opposite and also very bad

Well, related in that it's a period film with period music, but in both instances presented with a Glam/Prog sensibility fashionable from the time it was made.

Something else too is the mountain music versions of "White Light/White Heat" & "Fire and Brimstone" in Lawless.

I got one! In 'A Quiet Passion' Emily Dickinson sits upstairs and can hear a piano recital downstairs, and the song they are playing is 'I'm All Alone' from Spamalot.

Edith Bowman asks Tarantino about Cat People and Across 110th St in last week's Soundtracking podcast, and he says that during the year of press for Pulp Fiction, as a young idiot he would often opine that it was bad to use any song that had been used well in another film.

Making me...I won't ask. He was so much older then, he's dumber than that now.

It seems like such an obvious, commonsense point to me: if a film or TV show has essentially taken ownership of a song by using it unforgettably--"Stuck in the Middle with You," "In Dreams," "Don't Stop Believin'," "Tomorrow Never Knows"--unless it's absolutely crucial to what you're doing (or unless you're engaging in a game of "I can top that"--better not miss), why wouldn't you simply pick another song? When "Out of Time" showed up in Hollywood, my thoughts went something like this: "Interesting...certainly fits...I wonder if he's seen Coming Home?...of course he's seen Coming Home, he's Quentin Tarantino...I like this, but it was better in Coming Home." I'm not sure that's what he wants me thinking.

Having not seen Coming Home, which version of "Out of Time" did Ashby use--the 'Strings' version that QT also used, or the real Stones version from After-Math (UK)/Flowers/More Hot Rocks?

chris farlowe baby

The real version? Here it is, you can check:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8GzIdqTlVQ

(The song starts around 2:45.)

he used a different version tbf (xpost!)

and he goes into detail on the thinking behind the two choices cited, no need to just speculate. (I don't think they mention it specifically, but I suspect she's leading towards Out Of Time when she asks about picking songs that connect with the scene - he responds that that's usually something he avoids doing, having lyrics match or comment on screen action.) You're also not bothered by fully half his films using unoriginal score from other films, because you don't notice it! A minuscule proportion of Once Upon viewers will have seen Coming Home.

if a film or TV show has essentially taken ownership of a song by using it unforgettably--"Stuck in the Middle with You," "In Dreams," "Don't Stop Believin',"

look if this was the rule, Patty Jenkins wouldn't have been allowed to use Don't Stop Believin' in Monster.

XP That's the 'real' (i.e. actually performed by the band) one. The version QT used is Jagger's demo for Chris Farlowe, wherein he's backed by a bunch of session guys. This version was released on Metamorphosis, was a modest hit single in the mid-'70s, and ergo an anachronism in OUATIH.

(xpost) You're right--I don't notice that, so of course it doesn't bother me. As for songs, I'm hardly saying it's a rule, or that you're not allowed to do it, just that it's generally a bad idea. You're defending this point to death...As I've said more than once, I liked the film, enough to see it twice. But I sometimes get the feeling that anything less than awestruck subservience to the genius of QT is unacceptable.

Stones version, 1966 UK album track, cut-down version released on US compilations in 1967 and 1972: used in Coming Home, 1978. (Probably this version used in the American remake of Life On Mars starring Keitel and Imperioli.)

Chris Farlowe, 1966 #1 hit single

Mash-up version by Allen Klein, featuring Jagger guide vox, as demoed for Farlowe, over the produced Farlowe backing - 1975 single: used in Once Upon Hollywood, 2019


such an obvious, commonsense point to me

It's totally a good rule of thumb, but (eg) Cat People wouldn't have anything like the same effect if it was a new song written about setting fire to Nazis in a cinema - it's the recontextualising that makes it startling.

(xposts again! I'm not trying to attack yr opinions, just knocking ideas around, thinking abt this stuff having seen Basterds three days ago.)

unless it's absolutely crucial to what you're doing

everything is absolutely crucial to every director, at least in their own minds, particularly quentin tarantino, is pretty much how i break it down to an extent

he says that during the year of press for Pulp Fiction, as a young idiot he would often opine that it was bad to use any song that had been used well in another film

I searched out that section of the podcast, and that's not exactly what he says.

"I'm coming up with all these theories (while promoting Pulp Fiction) about 'You can do this, but you can't do that. You can do this, but I can't do that. I would never do that, and anybody who does that is an idiot.'" He wasn't saying he was an idiot then, he was busy calling other people idiots. He then goes on to say that one of his impulses for using songs from other films is one of the things I proposed above, that he thinks he can take that song and use it better (or sometimes, just differently).

So that's fine, there is some thought at work. But to reiterate, I don't think he uses "Out of Time" better, and he most definitely doesn't use "Mrs. Robinson" better (which I haven't even bothered to mention yet, it was so weirdly clumsy).

I was paraphrasing “I didn’t know what I was talking about, I’d only made two films, but I’d say (etc)” as ‘young idiot’

on this film and Demy's Model Shop

https://letterboxd.com/keithuhlich/film/once-upon-a-time-in-hollywood/2/

Can mods replace all morbz posts in this theead with https://youtu.be/0xGXeWVOtgM

Are you saying u want to fuck Morbs

just trying to help u out w/ further viewing, yer welcome

Not sure if these have been posted or not--we've probably exhausted the subject anyway.

http://www.gq.com/story/mary-ramos-quentin-tarantino-interview

http://thefilmstage.com/news/listen-quentin-tarantino-and-paul-thomas-anderson-discuss-once-upon-a-time-in-hollywood/?fbclid=IwAR2Mm2ejWdgJpszgZTvd-Zld46gikU9nWqzk9_T0bQdOUhcYVi4xdH-UNwE

fbclid=IwAR2Mm2ejWdgJpszgZTvd-Zld46gikU9nWqzk9_T0bQdOUhcYVi4xdH-UNwE

omg that DGA convo looks awesome — thanks clemenza!!!

and mary ramos is a genius, i love hearing about how she works with QT, they have such a cool symbiotic relationship

I finally have enough free hours to go see this in a few days

This exchange from the DGA convo above made me imagine if DiCaprio had starred in Punch Drunk Love.

PTA: Leo is consistently–when he decides to be–the f*cking funniest actor in Hollywood. Right? When he flips that switch….

QT: But truly, what’s so funny about him is that he’s not playing it funny. He’s playing it so f*cking serious. And that’s what so ridiculous.

Good interview with the author of one of my favorite Manson books, Creepy Crawling: Charles Manson and the Many Lives of America's Most Infamous Family here, which briefly touches on the film.

I guess what I most want to say about Bugliosi is that he was some kind of genius: I’ve been shocked, in this summer of the 50th anniversary, to see how many of the folks in my social media bubble—good Leftists, anti-mass incarceration, et cetera—are still fully in Bugliosi’s thrall. The book—and miniseries—were huge: if you go back and reread the book and remember how it freaked you out when you were 12 it will be a disappointment. It’s pretty flat and has been passed on the highway by much gorier and detailed works. But Bugliosi’s logic—especially the “Helter Skelter” theory or apocalyptic race war—keeps getting repeated as gospel. By, like Boots Riley! Why could Boots Riley repeat what is essentially cop-knowledge-on-steroids? I know you know that Mekons line about how turning journalists into heroes takes some doing. So I’ll just leave this question by saying the same thing about Bugliosi: he turned himself into the hero of the story. And he really was a petty square who made his bones with this case and then appointed himself Big Boss of Manson. But he was just tall—compared to Manson. That’s all.

otm

Helter Skelter gives a good overview of the bungled investigation & the insanity of the trial proceedings but his argument was total bunk

Someone else will want to gleefully post this, so let me beat him to it:

http://letterboxd.com/jrosenbaum2002/film/once-upon-a-time-in-hollywood/

What is Rosenbaum's history with Tarantino? Maybe I'm wrong, but sounds like the film never had a chance.

he's seen his crappy movies