PMs change and lol we're all gonna die (but brexit will never end)

we don’t hate FBPE because they’re pro EU we hate them because they are all nuggets who are going to get us all killed

xp also, most of the people addressing you *ARE* EU immigrants

that reminds me

I dearly wish a reactivated IRA would sucessfully blow up that scumbag Johnson and his evil cabinet.
At least their useless, morally-empty lives would have served a purpose.

— MarcHayo #FBPE (@markhayo) August 20, 2019

xp to Euler

Many people voted for Brexit to end "immigration" in general, and in particular non-EU immigration (despite the fact that this has nothing to do EU membership the vote for brexit was for, at least some voters, a vote against non-white people moreso than a vote against middle-class europeans). The public was primed for this by Theresa May's extreme anti-immigrant policies while Home Secretary and the coalition and labour shadow cabinet-s bipartisan chest puffing hardmanning on this issue. This is part of the tangled mess that gave us brexit in the first place and its impossible to parse it meaningfully through logic. Rather, it is analogous to voting for Trump's tax breaks for the the superwealthy as a way of sticking it to the Washington/Wall St elites. The representational and practical aspects of policy is elided into something that is for the most part entirely contradictory.

Within this Labour have tried to be rather Janus-faced. Sticking to a line "freedom of movement ends when we leave the EU" that is intentionally slippery. "Freedom of movement" (an offical EU designated policy) ends (as the EU is no longer the officiating party) "when we leave the EU" (the terms of which could vary greatly). The line as espoused by Labour is, I think, intended to elude a betrayal narrative that the right-wing dominated press is intent on levelling at labour. It does not mean that some other equivalent set of freedoms (dictated by UK governement and therefore preserving UK sovereignty) could not be legislated by Labour. Of course this will be more precarious as not backed up by the EU.

In answer to your question about whether or not other migration from outside the EU was seen as MORE desirable. I think the images of the borders of Europe have made many people on the left more conscious of the limits of freedom of movement and the terrible violence that preserves its integrity at Europe's periphery, something likely to get ever worse with climate change. Labour's line plays to these people as well as avoiding this confrontation with the right-wing media at this point when it has become such a cheerleader for the current nativism of Tories.

i dont think its fair to criticize the thread (or to characterize the criticism of the thread) (are those z's both right? fuckit) as 'samethink'

i think that the x number of posters that are allowed to have tantrums - if thats what pom did (it isnt tbh) - in the thread and the eh spiteful reaction to any new cat dropped into the kitchen among this uneasy alliance is the issue x

xxp I saw an excellent thread contrasting he remain campaign and the repeal campaign that I now can’t find and it made the points about consensus building and winning over waverers and -shockingly - reached the same conclusion about a new referendum here. It’s entirely true and they’ll throw us under the bus.

I think it's worth remembering that pom's entrance into the thread yesterday consisted of an unfunny joke, according to him, about (((liberal democrats))) followed by a comment, directed at the entire thread I assume, about 'you tankies'. Not terribly clever or constructive.

But carry on with your Captain Save-a-Pom routine, deems, it's entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6QhAZckY8w

It was indeed unfunny, that much is certainly true.

some platitudinous, hackneyed blathering from Peter Reid (hey at least he's not Graham Souness with the evil glint in his eye for NDB!) on People's Vote in the indie today. But some truth in there that tin-eared Remain campaigners don't ever seem to learn about how condescending and dishonest they are at delivering their message. And perhaps reminding Leave voters of some of the interests of the greedy corrupt sociopaths they are aligning themselves with could be more productive than hectoring them about the annual GDP of London's FS sector or whatever. Perhaps the problem is corrupt greedy sociopaths from both sides of the EU ref campaigns don't like to attack each other too directly maybe, and keep it to the pantomime stuff for mass consumption.

My argument, which I formulated repeatedly even though you claim not know to what I 'want', is that Corbyn is too ambiguous a Remainer for me to be fully on board with his Brexit policies, which doesn't mean that I wouldn't vote for him if I could.

We're almost at the point of peak sterility here.

― pomenitul, Tuesday, 20 August 2019 09:13 (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Again. Except for the caveat that Labour's ambiguity on Brexit is in many ways a media construct (both more complex than a single soundbyte and with an in-built model of change) this is pretty much EXACTLY THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE HERE. Pro Labour generally but with plenty of caveats. Exactly the position that made another poster see this thread as only united through various critiques.

Practicing самокритика there Pom, cute.

But carry on with your Captain Save-a-Pom routine, deems, it's entertaining.

― Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 09:30 (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

^ gets it!

https://admitonefilmaddict.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/gladiator-e1470584300765.jpg?w=672&h=372&crop=1

thanks plaxico for your thoughtful post. I see that Labour's policy on EU freedom of movement reflects discord amongst their base of support. Is there such discord on this thread?

When I hear the term “echo chamber” or “ideological diversity” etc. that’s when I etc etc

All meaningful discussions happen in closed groups, people who have agreed to the terms etc. It’s not as if people here aren’t exposed to right wing arguments.

id imagine that we're not talking about stromfornt here tbf

I don't think it's controversial to suggest that echo chambers reinforce groupthink and act as a blocker of sorts to understanding the wider world? Yes even in those scenarios you hear the views of people whose representatives shout the the loudest, but that still excludes a lot of groups.

I know, but I don't get the sense that for anybody here this place accounts for the majority of discussion they have about this, and the breadth of stuff linked suggests that people have a lot of other sources. I find it a really good repository of stuff I might not otherwise read as I tend to get a lot of my news from abandoned copies of the FT I find in blackfriars station in the morning.

Yeah I felt that went without saying...? Pretty hard to live in the UK and dodge right wing politics or viewpoints.

Yeah, whatever is wrong with xyzzzz, gyac, et al, I don't think it can be blamed on ilx.

Great contribution, manages to be ignorant (and ableist?)

ahh ..it's always nice to smell that first plop of ideological diversity of the day!

I like ilxor UK politics threads as a place to park information about news, to have a discussion that’s unlikely to be interrupted by cranks of the Chris Williamson ilk, derailed or derided by Centrist ‘90s Music Press Guys (and where we can complain about them), or people with other flavours of Corbyn Derangement Syndrome.

This is a rare corner of the interwebs where people are mostly intelligent and accommodating of others. It’s also a good spot to commiserate with others touched by austerity/Tory cruelty and having an outlet to clown
on the latest Jess Phillips/Stephen Kinnock/Change UK bullshit also a bonus.

Fred only visiting in between bans tbf.

the only way i can see out of this mess is for a Labour govt to massively reset the social compact (as Corbyn alluded to yesterday). if the programme is deep and far-reaching enough i.e. free education, renationalise utilities, war footing for climate change and social housing, tear up PFI and backdoor privatisation in the NHS, then frankly I'm not sure it makes a huge difference to voters whether we leave or remain. the ensuing arguments would come close to obliterating the memory of Brexit imo!

(Sorry to clarify I was talking about echo chambers in general, not ILX)

Brexit is like the 'global war on terror'. the US reacted to this massive psychological trauma - 9/11 - with an action that it thought could put the lid back on the pot of its anxiety. it couldn't. it never could. Brexit the same. the UK system is fucked. a decades-long experiment in privatisation and anti-municipalism has led to a stagnation that no one can see the end of. so let's do something dramatic! that'll put the lid back on the pot! but it won't. the problems have to be confronted at the source.

there has been lots of scaremongering about the effect of a Corbyn gov in terms of mass capital flight, but this happened to Labour in the 70's and there was no apocalypse. And brexit uncertainty is already blocking foreign investment to a trickle.

sorry typing on phone, sound like Russian

this is the thread for it

I was talking to lifelong Labour voter J last night (likes Corbyn’s domestic policies but voted Green in the EU elections because Labour’s Brexit message wasn’t enough for him) and we wondered what the Labour Leave option would look like if they got in and were the negotiators. I thought something along the lines of EEA/EFTA v. Remain (with reforms) and J conceded he could live with that version of Brexit. What do you lot think?

Fred only visiting in between bans tbf.

― Boulez, vous couchez avec moi? (Tom D.), Tuesday, 20 August 2019 bookmarkflaglink

Another ban, wonder how that happened..

posting as he normally does

Comments from Johnson and Foster v much indicate they have no interest or indeed ability to come up with backstop alternative.

When are we going full Hong Kong on this?

I was reading replies to the letter on the No 10 twitter account last night and Leavers were queuing up to say EVEN WITH THE BACKSTOP THIS ISNT GOOD ENOUGH. Pair this with the large number I saw raging about IDS’s pension plans and it’s not been a good week for them with a decent part of the voter coalition.

*backstop gone

What would satisfy them? Another Waterloo?

Nothing, there is nothing they can get that will satisfy them.

NDB

Nah even then they’d been agitating for public deportation or something. It never ends.

Given how hauntingly gripping their tabula rasa fantasies have proven themselves to be, perhaps the UK should also pull out of every other treaty it has signed over the decades. Emancipation from the EU is just the first step on the path to insular autonomy. Survival of the fittest was formulated by an Englishman, after all.

UK government source hits back at Tusk and Commission

“If the Commission only wants to offer the same failed backstop that will not pass then they are essentially choosing to risk either a hard border in NI or a border in the Irish Sea. That is not what anyone wants.”

— James Crisp (@JamesCrisp6) August 20, 2019

Does nobody want a border in the irish sea lol

but aNnExAtIoN

"Look, if we can't come to an agreement, you will be evicted from your house, or have the opportunity to move to a much nicer house, and no-one wants that"

Or as the og FBPE guy would put it, CAKE OR DEATH

that reminds me

I dearly wish a reactivated IRA would sucessfully blow up that scumbag Johnson and his evil cabinet.
At least their useless, morally-empty lives would have served a purpose.
— MarcHayo #FBPE (@markhayo) August 20, 2019
― ogmor, Tuesday, August 20, 2019 2:21 AM (seven hours ago)

this has been deleted :(

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