i like drinking gin/vodka and soda so having such a thing in a can with a light flavouring like a lacroix is a good thing.
these are not gendered drinks - unless they're gendered by extremely fragile males
― bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:06 (four years ago) link
I find that the alcohol aftertaste combined with the seltzer aftertaste is reminiscent of licking a tire
― brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:07 (four years ago) link
it always surprises me how much flak I continue to get from (male) servers when ordering white wine, strawberry daiquiris, or certain cocktails (anything without gin or whiskey in it, I guess?)
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:12 (four years ago) link
the only good spiked seltzer i've had is arctic summer, which is made by the polar people, and even then it depends on the flavor
― american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:13 (four years ago) link
You can pry my mojito out of my cold, dead, properly manicured yet large and masculine hands.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 16 August 2019 16:14 (four years ago) link
oh yeah, mojitos are magic
― brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:14 (four years ago) link
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Friday, August 16, 2019 9:12 AM (five minutes ago)
i like to remember the time i got a bellini (an actual bellini with fresh peaches not the weird slushy versions which are popular) and the server went round the table offering it to every woman seated until i claimed it
― bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:19 (four years ago) link
lol bellinis just remind me of Matt DC's hilarious second-hand Usher-vs-bartender story so I can't take them seriously anymore
― brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:20 (four years ago) link
(for those who haven't read it: people who've been on TV whom you've pwned)
― brigadier pudding (DJP), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:22 (four years ago) link
note that the delivery has not aged well
As the Hugo (look it up -- it's damn delicious) spreads outside of Austria, there seems to be some effort to gender it as a girl drink as well, but f that. I will have two, one for each oversized bruised-knuckled fist.
― Three Word Username, Friday, 16 August 2019 16:29 (four years ago) link
wine spritzers? we already came up with a more sugary faux version back in the bartles & jaymes days
― untuned mass damper (mh), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:37 (four years ago) link
oh my god. i had never read the usher story.
― Li'l Brexit (Tracer Hand), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:39 (four years ago) link
I drink a lot of wine, gin, random cocktailish stuff in my regular pub and I get joshed on it but almost never in a challenging my masculinity way which is cool really
― PMS change (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 August 2019 16:42 (four years ago) link
https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2019/08/importance-friendship-older-men/596692/
Dean: Going back to your question about guys, middle-aged guys in particular—it isn’t just loneliness that a lot of people experience at that age. It’s almost a sense of despondency, and that manifests itself in all sorts of destructive ways.You really need people around you. Otherwise you start believing the voices in your head. We are wired for community, and not that many people, our age in particular and maybe even more our gender in particular, have communities that can right the ship if what they’re thinking is a little wacky.
You really need people around you. Otherwise you start believing the voices in your head. We are wired for community, and not that many people, our age in particular and maybe even more our gender in particular, have communities that can right the ship if what they’re thinking is a little wacky.
― j., Friday, 23 August 2019 20:02 (four years ago) link
This belongs here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1xxcKCGljY
― shared unit of analysis (unperson), Saturday, 24 August 2019 12:07 (four years ago) link
I watched the video. I'm mixed about ContraPoints because it feels like an obligation to me; it's not something I would choose to watch for pleasure. Natalie is smart and talented and compassionate and her creative style is not generally my thing. Also it's a little bit preaching to the choir for me sometimes.
I did kind of go through a phase where I hated men, just broadly as a group. I'm not saying I was Valerie Solanos or anything like that but I did get a little overheated and over the top about things.
I'm not that way anymore. Now that I can recognize that I'm not a man I can recognize that there are good and positive aspects to manhood, it's not just all about violence and hatred. Being part of the trans community has also really helped me with that. There are very strict rules about treating everybody as valid, with respect and kindness. It is not OK to talk about how men are awful or call a man ugly or ridicule or make fun of men. One can talk about "toxic masculinity" but it is very clear that not all masculinity is toxic masculinity. Epic giant robot battles, for instance, that stuff is very masculine and is pretty cool even though I've come to the conclusion that me personally I'd mostly just rather watch people talk about their emotions and shit.
And like Natalie, I don't believe I can possibly have the answers anymore. Men have to work things out for themselves and I don't really have a say in that because of who I am. You know, a positive vision of masculinity? That would be nice. I tried that, I tried the Iron John thing, and I'll be honest with you it wasn't really a good thing for me because the first thing I tried to do was come out as trans, and this was the '90s, and that was very uncomfortable for them and devastating for me.
Is there a larger Gender Crisis going on? I don't know, really, yeah I don't want to catastrophize but it does seem to me like everything is falling to bits, shit just doesn't work like it used to. And I can't really differentiate. Yeah I was really frustrated with the straitjacket of male expectations, but Natalie's joke, I mean, it's really a barbed one. I've been accused of not really being a woman, just a man who hates toxic masculinity. That's a hurtful and invalidating thing to say, and on reflection it just doesn't correspond with my actual lived experience.
What would make it better for guys? You know what it occurs to me that you might be happier if you could express physical affection, if you weren't afraid that looking good (I don't mean "sexy" I mean just, like, wearing clothes that fit properly) or being emotionally vulnerable made you some sort of beta soy boy, if you felt able to, at least occasionally, be kind and supportive to each other instead of this constant stream of trash talk. But I don't know, I'm not a guy, and maybe that's just not something that's as meaningful to guys as it is to women.
I feel like I am turning every fucking thread on this board into Kate's Gender Issues Workshop. Well, it's been kind of a big week for me and I have lots of shit to work through.
― Abigail, Wife of Preserved Fish (rushomancy), Saturday, 24 August 2019 17:52 (four years ago) link
As a longtime fan, I was a bit disappointed in the Contrapoints video; usually she manages to dive deep and find some new angle or avenue of research, and that didn't happen here, despite her unusual (for pundits/culture commentators) vantage point of having lived/presented as a man. I get that it's not her job/responsibility but just throwing her hands up at the end felt like a cop-out.
― Simon H., Saturday, 24 August 2019 17:56 (four years ago) link
I don't think anything she said was *wrong* to be clear, and I also totally get why someone in her position would be wary of engaging too directly in Men's Discourse or whatever.
― Simon H., Saturday, 24 August 2019 17:57 (four years ago) link
Is there a larger Gender Crisis going on? I don't know
Feels to me more like the lifting of a set of strictly-enforced gender repressions. When women demanded property rights and the vote, there was plenty of public hand-wringing about how awful it was that women would start acting like men and gender roles would be destroyed.
Imposed gender roles were taken as ordained and gave the (false) promise of certainty. People much prefer certainty over uncertainty and get upset over losing it, even when the certainty they are trying to cling to was a mirage.
― A is for (Aimless), Saturday, 24 August 2019 18:08 (four years ago) link
This thread is a turd gold mine:
https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/d0y94l/cmv_our_society_is_facing_a_masculinity_crisis/
― pomenitul, Sunday, 8 September 2019 09:23 (four years ago) link
A friend of mine wrote this for Harper's --
https://harpers.org/archive/2019/11/men-at-work-evryman-barrett-swanson/
― change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 24 October 2019 17:34 (four years ago) link
damn that sounds like hell
― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 24 October 2019 18:32 (four years ago) link
I really enjoyed that piece.
― Yerac, Thursday, 24 October 2019 20:16 (four years ago) link
my beard means something
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 24 October 2019 20:24 (four years ago) link
tastes like a brown crayon.
― Yerac, Thursday, 24 October 2019 20:25 (four years ago) link
We've been getting a lot of mileage out of this one over the last few months
“What a lot of literacy folks don’t realize is that boys have a different brain structure than girls,” he says. Females are auditory learners, he tells me, whereas boys are “more visual.” Over the past decade, Robert spent a million dollars on market research, trying to figure out what boys wanted to read by visiting schools and speaking with parents and teachers, all of which yielded an adventure series called Time Soldiers. In it, camo-clad tweens defy the space-time continuum with helmets and skateboards. The series pairs cinematic photos with skimpy blocks of text, creating what Robert suggests is an entirely new type of literature. To me, though, it sounds like your standard picture book. “What do you call this genre?” I ask. “They’re movie books,” he says. Part of the reason he’s joined the Evryman movement is that he lost four million dollars in the venture and has been lugging around a surfeit of anger as a result.
― change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 24 October 2019 20:30 (four years ago) link
I almost looked up that website but didn't want to feel even more of a certain way for that guy.
― Yerac, Thursday, 24 October 2019 20:35 (four years ago) link
That entire anecdote baffled me
― mh, Thursday, 24 October 2019 20:46 (four years ago) link
Ford: "Surfeits in the space-time continuum"Arthur: "Ah... is he. Is he"
― the girl from spirea x (f. hazel), Thursday, 24 October 2019 21:06 (four years ago) link
What do you do with the mad that you feelWhen the Time Soldiers take all your dough
― Go-Gurt Ops (Old Lunch), Thursday, 24 October 2019 21:20 (four years ago) link
Different brain structure? Fuck that dope.
― mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Thursday, 24 October 2019 21:28 (four years ago) link
Got to imagine there are cheaper ways to produce picture books for remedial adolescent boys than spending 4 million
― Seany's too Dyche to mention (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 24 October 2019 21:32 (four years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAGQkmh3oeI
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 24 October 2019 21:51 (four years ago) link
that article has good stuff in it, thanks Jordan.
The historian E. Anthony Rotundo has observed that the masculinity of the colonial era wasn’t defined by chest-thumping machismo or brawny, entrepreneurial pluck, but was measured instead by a man’s willingness to forfeit his time and resources for the betterment of his community. Hardly was this a matter of “emotional intelligence.” Rather, his duties were fulfilled through “publick usefulness.” Often this led to nascent forms of mutual aid, because in a world where “creditors were neighbors and kinsmen were clients, a man’s failure at work was never a private concern.” Meanwhile, those men who saddled up and lit out for the territories were roundly condemned as “frontier wastrels,” as the historian Vernon Louis Parrington called them, princes of thoughtlessness who pursued their own agendas and roamed the country as they pleased.Yet the rise of industrialization and the birth of modern capitalism rewarded precisely those attributes that colonial communities were prone to denigrate: aggression, guile, and an overwhelming will to power.
Yet the rise of industrialization and the birth of modern capitalism rewarded precisely those attributes that colonial communities were prone to denigrate: aggression, guile, and an overwhelming will to power.
this is interesting. it's probably half true, as these kinds of things are. a figure like trump--in his megalomania and solipsism--is a creature of sociopathic capitalism. our economy perversely rewards antisocial behavior and indeeds thrives on it.
― treeship., Thursday, 24 October 2019 22:14 (four years ago) link
i don't think he, or like alt right mass shooters, represent the final curdling of long and static construct of "masculinity." i think something more specific is happening that is making men think that they aren't part of society.
― treeship., Thursday, 24 October 2019 22:15 (four years ago) link
masculinity has to be deconstructed and everything don't get me wrong, but i don't think it is always one thing. it changes with the times.
― treeship., Thursday, 24 October 2019 22:16 (four years ago) link
Its odd that the author failed to note that all the emotions the men were encouraged to let out/experience/process were negative ones: fear, anger, sadness etc
― Οὖτις, Friday, 25 October 2019 00:26 (four years ago) link
It wasn't explicit but I thought he was saying that throughout.
― Yerac, Friday, 25 October 2019 00:41 (four years ago) link
I was just looking up the rates for the weekend workshops and I guess it's about what I thought they would charge.
― Yerac, Friday, 25 October 2019 00:52 (four years ago) link
that’s kind of a bizarre reinforcement of masculine solidarity: all of the emotional discourse is purging of negative thoughts, complaints about the world, and you get back to trudging forward. despite all the hugs and crying, you never talk about the things you love and how they hold you up. too soft, maybe?
― mh, Friday, 25 October 2019 00:57 (four years ago) link
the more i live with this topic the more it feels to me like the real "toxic" source of the problem is a need for unimpeachable authenticity or ground truth to frame masculine gender performance. and the thing that makes the above critique and many similar ones i've encountered before it so unsatisfying is that they really seem to be looking for ground truth as much as their subjects are, they just want to locate it in something more tempered, reasonable, widely read and "truthful". i just think that by freeing masculine gender performance and signifiers from the burden of needing to be 'a truthful thing' allows one to 1) have so much more fun and 2) stop damaging others by trying to turn one (of many) gender performances into truth claims.
― cheese canopy (map), Friday, 25 October 2019 01:10 (four years ago) link
I was worried that there doesn't seem to be a licensed mental health professional available during these retreats. It seemed irresponsible based upon what their exercises are.
Shoehorning everyone into traditional gender roles is just bad bad bad for everyone involved. Except I guess those at the top of the hierarchy. It's a pyramid scheme. There is no reason that any worthy attribute, ambition or desire should be gendered.
― Yerac, Friday, 25 October 2019 01:19 (four years ago) link
i'm really starting to think (and i'm sure i've mentioned this upthread) that the way forward wrt masculine gender performance is to center trans experience.
and now for a real hot take, i think 'iron john' is good actually. there's absolutely nothing of substance to it but as a LARPy book about masculine gender performance it's kind of fun.
― cheese canopy (map), Friday, 25 October 2019 01:21 (four years ago) link
i think trans men are so so cool! they seem to have so little of the toxicity that so many cis men have.
― Spironolactone T. Agnew (rushomancy), Friday, 25 October 2019 01:26 (four years ago) link
― cheese canopy (map), Thursday, October 24, 2019 9:10 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
i really like this post
― call all destroyer, Friday, 25 October 2019 01:28 (four years ago) link
same!
― i'm not a government man; i'm a government, man. (m bison), Friday, 25 October 2019 01:32 (four years ago) link
ive been thinking a lot about why im drawn to mr rogers and i think bc he represents a nurturing model of masculinity that doesnt really exist in the public conscious anymore
― i'm not a government man; i'm a government, man. (m bison), Friday, 25 October 2019 01:37 (four years ago) link
I feel like the closest recent equivalent in pop culture terms was Coach Taylor on FNL
― Simon H., Friday, 25 October 2019 01:40 (four years ago) link
Then there was my neighbor, the thirtysomething man who occupied the apartment next to mine, who lived alone and worked at one of the big tech companies in town—I knew this thanks to his corporate-issue tote bag. I had never exchanged more than a passing greeting with him in the hall, but through the scrim of our parchment-thin walls, I could hear the war-blitz of his video game console, which began like clockwork each Friday evening and continued without rest—rain or shine, winter or summer, with little regard for holidays—until the end of the weekend. It’s difficult, in hindsight, to account for the sadness I experienced listening to him holed up for days on end in front of a screen, blasting Elder Dragons or whatever. Sometimes, late at night, he would get drunk, put on indie music from the late 1990s, and sing along in a voice that was full-throated, plaintive, and remarkably on key.
had to look up the author to make sure he didn't live in my city
― Lucky Pierre Delecto (crüt), Friday, 25 October 2019 01:42 (four years ago) link