Why do people leave ILX for good?

i'm saying the reason the toni morrison thread is not particularly active is because toni morrison's core audience does not post to ilx

toni morrison has won the pulitzer prize, the nobel prize, and the presidential medal of freedom--it's odd to imply that her "core audience" is some sort of niche in service of your point. she's in the running for the most respected american author of the past 40 years.

just as much of a factor in the difference between the reaction to her and berman here is that amazingly, after all these years, this is still a board mostly populated by music fans.

i say this not to deny the demographics of ilx because we all know what those are. if we need to recap again that this place is a closed system and has been for 9 or 10 years so be it.

I am the father of a queer latina fwiw

Wish there was a presidential medal of indie rock.

it amounts to nothing more than hand-wringing.

this happens every couple of months, like clockwork. it always results in 100s of posts of ppl meta-arguments about the state of ILX. I usually don't participate cuz they seem pointless. Not sure why I weighed in on this one, maybe cuz Marcos was posting and I always read posts of my fellow apocalyptic dub enthusiasts :)

That's where the 'welcoming and treating with respect' come into play. There really are no tools for enforcing respect, other than clear social norms and social pressure to conform or be ostracized. But his is a double-edged sword, because the better this works, the more homogenous the participation becomes, leading to calls for more diversity and an open yearning for the return of disruptive and disrespectful posters.

afaics, the greatest gravitational pull of ILX for new users has always been exerted through ILM and its appeal to fans of small music scenes that are not much recognized in the broader internet. Some of those new ILMers then spread into the rest of the boards.

Btw, sometimes people leave ILX for the simple reason that other ways of spending their time become more compelling, namely jobs, families and an interest in new social groups.

-it's odd to imply that her "core audience" is some sort of niche in service of your point.

i'm stating, not implying, that black people are toni morrison's core audience because toni morrison herself has explicitly said this!

Google is what initially brought music-haunted teenage me to ILM 15-odd years ago. I (mostly) lurked for a couple of years then vanished into the nothingness whence I came, only to return in 2017, soon after I started seriously listening to non-classical music again. Although I wasn't around for the whole thing, much of the palpable toxicity has evaporated in the interim. We can certainly do better, but it's pretty clear to me that ILX has moved away from vacuous one-upmanship (emphasis on 'man') over the years.

We need Dom Passantino to return as a bisexual woman of color from Brazil.

I rather think it's worth remembering how many women in particular were very much here for a long time but either left of their own volition because they felt things were getting far too uncomfortable or were essentially driven away for similar reasons. Let's not kid ourselves about that.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 8 August 2019 bookmarkflaglink

Let's not kid ourselves that those women would've automatically posted about TM's work. It's a very faulty assumption.

And ilx often reflects what is out there. We can talk about it but let's not kid ourselves that TM was anymore than some minority interest, as is the case with a lot of writers.

Right.. Sort of indie rock demographics (a survey would be interesting). I wasn't thinking of any distinction between ILX and ILM... is there anyone who started with the former? How?

xp

xyzzz, you’re warping what Ned said into a strawman, and

We can talk about it but let's not kid ourselves that TM was anymore than some minority interest, as is the case with a lot of writers

??

Rightly or wrongly, I tend to assume that regular ILX posters who mostly avoid ILM got started on the latter only to desert it over time (comrade alphabet being a prime example).

xp

xp i think he's saying nobody likes writers, except for dan brown, that guy could write a pretty good story

"minority interest"

what

Very few threads on authors have lots of discussion in them. And ILB is a small sub-board.

xyzzz, you’re warping what Ned said into a strawman

Quite. My point was not about Morrison's passing, but in general.

as is the case with a lot of writers
??

Regular readers of any kind of books are a small minority within the general public. By the time you winnow it down to avid readers of a single author who wrote highly literary books about black people in the USA, however popular or lionized that author may be among her peers and her readers, you're talking some pretty small numbers.

Toni Morrison's name is well-known to the general public because of her long association with Oprah Winfrey, not because a majority of the general public has read her books and were deeply affected by them. Literature is a niche interest. Always has been.

the main thing I'm getting from this revive is maybe I should read Toni Morrison

That is OTM.

it's roughly as impossible for me to recommend ILX as it is for me to convince people to listen to Hollywood Handbook. The appeal is limited to begin with, it's structurally (but not maliciously) off-putting to new arrivals, you kind of have to have been there for a while, and there's other options for entertainment out there.

That we've disproportionately lost the participation of many women who used to be regulars isn't lost on anyone, probably.

it's an act of violence to actively encourage anyone to use an internet site, has been since 2006

Let me hasten to point out that the ILX I joined in January 2005 was more hostile in a boys-in-a-messageboard way than now. I have no wish to return to those days.

I posted about Toni Morrison on social media, but not here.

darragh otm . find the whole "gosh aren't white people terrible thing" that a few white posters seem so committed to on ilx really gross. got to the point where i've started to think that not having to wring my hands about how bad racism is on a message board is one of the few benefits of not being white.

yeah, white people need to talk about race less, great idea

Quite. My point was not about Morrison's passing, but in general.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 8 August 2019 bookmarkflaglink

Don't see it as general if it's a specific point about how past female posters have been treated on here. My point that its possible it wouldn't have mattered if, say, jbr was still around she might have said something, stands.

A lot of Nobel and high profile writers aren't talked about. And that's often to do with the fact ilx talks about more day-to-day things these days.

And that Lit is a minority interest.

As someone who just showed up here a few days ago, here are my possibly inaccurate impressions:

1. This place doesn't seem cliquish or unwelcoming, though clearly the regulars know each other well.
2. I like the absence of likes or upvotes, it really lowers the sense of pressure around posting/checking back.
3. I probably wouldn't come here to talk about literature that much, though I read a lot. It seems like the chances of getting an interesting conversation going around music are much higher.

Agreed, on all three counts. And welcome!

"it's because ILB doesn't have much traffic"
"it's because it's mostly a music board"
"it's because it's a closed board"
"it's because literature is a niche interest"
"it's because people don't really read in general"
"it's because morrison is a minority interest"

no it's because it's white as fuck here! and as in orbit said if you are a poc why would you really want to hang out here that much when there are other spaces online where you and your perspective might be centered rather than marginal?

all this i write in a thread called "why do people leave ilx for good" that did not list "paucity of nonwhite voices" as a reason in the original poll. but yea i know we've covered this ground before. i don't have anything new to say. ive just been wondering to myself lately about how i don't really post here that much, and the discrepancy between the topics i see talked about IRL/elsewhere online in the communities i'm in and the topics on ILX struck me with this particular example of toni morrison but i could've easily found another

a newbie! Welcome!

I prefer I Love Books to I Love Music myself these days, even tho most ppl are reading stuff I've never heard of/have no interest in lol

xp

I am the father of a queer latina fwiw

― L'assie (Euler), Thursday, August 8, 2019 2:13 PM (fifty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

read this as queen latifah

Marcos, you used to post a lot — why the change of heart?

That’s not a disingenuous question

other spaces online where you and your perspective might be centered rather than marginal

Do you think these other perspectives would get quashed on 2019 ILX?

You know when I feel most bored? When the (many, many) white men on the monthly politics thread share their croakings of doom. I think, what the FUCK, bros? I'm the one with most to lose and I carry on.

how does everyone know who is and isn't white? jaymc.xls?

i look at who is posting in belle and sebastian threads

no it's because it's white as fuck here!

Yes, it is "white as fuck" around here. By gosh, you're right! That is a very valid reason. But it doesn't invalidate whether those other reasons apply, too. Or is your world so reductive that more than one reason cannot contribute to an outcome?

xp lool!

lol jim

2xp

xp alfred

i hear that - i've been trying to take it down several notches.

You know when I feel most bored? When the (many, many) white men on the monthly politics thread share their croakings of doom

amen

better not take it down too many notches tho cause then you'll be called out for being callous

how does everyone know who is and isn't white? jaymc.xls?

WDYLL threads, presumably

As someone who just showed up here a few days ago, here are my possibly inaccurate impressions:

First, welcome. Hope you find this a congenial place to hang out from time to time.

Second, those seem to me like fairly accurate impressions. I especially like your impression #2. I think it makes ILX a better place.

You know when I feel most bored? When the (many, many) white men on the monthly politics thread share their croakings of doom. I think, what the FUCK, bros? I'm the one with most to lose and I carry on.

― TikTok to the (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, August 8, 2019 12:21 PM (thirteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

rip treeship

"no it's because it's white as fuck here!"

Have you bothered to find out who is hiding behind the screen names?

When someone dies it often gets very little interest. I wouldn't jump the gun and say this is a bad thing on the board or its current demographics.

Often we don't have to bother: the responses give the game away.