no boys allowed in the room!!!!

AMAZING.

Everything is the devil's doorway to Evangelicals. Yoga, meditation, masturbation, college.

I refuse to be categorized, that’s part of my most stubborn stubbornness. Shrug!

Branwell, I bought Down Girl a few months ago, but it is on my ever increasing pile of books to read.

We took Meyers-Briggs tests for a class in college, and I would always get different results. Except for I, always an I.

Same here, always an I, but iirc the others are usually close to 50/50 and fall one way or the other depending on my mood and the phase of the moon.

My line manager wants to send the team (~10 people) on some not-quite-MBTI personality test so we can "learn how to work together better". That sounds nice*, but half of me thinks they're basically meaningless or at least measure something barely relevant to "how to work together", and half of me is scared it'll confirm all my character flaws and it will become an accepted truth of the office that I'm a terrible person who will ruin everything and should be micromanaged and disdained.

* tbh it doesn't even sound nice

Also even apart from the end result I'm scared the quiz will have lots of questions like "I immediately start work on all my tasks and work very efficiently at them until they are done" and, haha, uh... it's a trap, right? Who gets to see these?

So yes, keep these things away from work and HR and "teambuilding exercises" and hiring decisions, please.

(Some smart and good ilxors once recommended the book by Martin Seligman on learned helplessness, which I fear is relevant to my life situation, except one of the early chapters was about him applying his theories to a personality test used by some big company to make hiring + firing decisions, and I immediately disliked the guy...)

every single astrology meme treats my sign like the absolute asshole of the zodiac and all I can think every time I see one is "fuck you, go swive"

if you go deep into the whole chart (as opposed to just the sun sign), it can be more interesting or liberatory or just give people like me, who can be analytical and nerdy, more stuff to be analytical and nerdy about ... and that's not even getting into synastry. Basically, I am "absolute asshole" rising, but my sun sign is "the worst person ever" ... but one of the best types of astrology memes are the ones that critique overly simplistic astrology memes: like Aries --> Angry! Angry! Angry!; Taurus --> Food ...

It's good to discover how people view themselves, and find out how they want to be treated, and saying "my sign is like..." is a low stress way to express that.

I think this is really astute! ... And relatedly, I feel like, one of the challenging things about working through your own issues/inner conflicts is being able to find language you feel comfortable with using about them. All the clickbait about young people feeling more comfortable communicating in emoji makes me think of this as well. And part of me feels like a stereotypical "woo woo Californian" talking about my personal issues in astrological terms, but I also have a tendency to be very "closed off" and a desire to be viewed as "bulletproof," and if in order to deal with shit and not destroy myself, my self-talk is about "my Saturn in Cancer problem" or my "Sun-Moon square aspect" then, that's what it is, for now.

APS, is it the Margerison-McCann Team Management thing?

Hey Branwell, always good to see you here.

also APS I have webmailed u

ugh using a standardized "personality" test for a job sounds lazy and would make me paranoid.

i had a job use it on me 1x and it did indeed make me paranoid and i filled out the survey accordingly

it's great that even when franklin is doing jack chick-style propaganda he still makes the effort to objectify women, that's a sign of someone who's committed to the total package

branwell thanks for reminding me about ENTJs i tend to forget extroverts (is it that or extravert? XTC has me confused) exist, yes they are definitely hitlers, except for the ones who aren't

when i was 12 i was all down on the J side but starting at about 20 i flipped to being half P and half J

my recent change has been swinging hard (hello jazz thread) from T to F, i'm pretty happy about that one

my company did one of those personality things five years ago, it was before i got there though and the only people who still have them up are people who have been there forever

My line manager wants to send the team (~10 people) on some not-quite-MBTI personality test so we can "learn how to work together better". That sounds nice*, but half of me thinks they're basically meaningless or at least measure something barely relevant to "how to work together", and half of me is scared it'll confirm all my character flaws and it will become an accepted truth of the office that I'm a terrible person who will ruin everything and should be micromanaged and disdained.

Also even apart from the end result I'm scared the quiz will have lots of questions like "I immediately start work on all my tasks and work very efficiently at them until they are done" and, haha, uh... it's a trap, right? Who gets to see these?

― a passing spacecadet, Thursday, August 1, 2019 2:55 PM bookmarkflaglink

I've done at least two of these things. One was, as you describe, full of kind of "I always prioritise my company's interests over my own!!!" type questions - and this was part of the hiring process! They wouldn't even interview people without taking it. So I filled it in as if I were a total sociopath and told their headhunter I really didn't think the company was a good fit for me. (They didn't disagree, but IT people are hard to recruit.)

The other thing was weirder, but ended up being more interesting - I think the company was called 1n$1ghts? (Can't remember what the name of their test was.) It was a much weirder test - you had to pick one out of groups of really nebulously defined words. (1) Convoluted 2) Glutinous 3) Scintillating 4) rhizomatic - pick one, and I'm only half joking) They only measured 2 of the MBTI scales (I vs E and T vs F) and came up with four colours / work styles, which were...

Red - little Hitler
Blue - unfeeling logic robot
Yellow - total drama llama
Green - whiny snowflake

(OK, those weren't the real descriptions but that was kind of the gist.) We did genuinely get something out of it? But I think it was more that our company, and our particular group dynamic, we did find it helpful because people here do seem to *want* to make things better? Oddly, I thought it would be the Reds that I bumped heads with, but I got long fine with all our Reds. (I was Blue with a disturbingly large streak of Red.) But all of the people that had clashed with here, every single one of them was Yellow. And they genuinely had some tips and practices to help you get along with other types? But that is the one and only one case where an MBTI-based thing has helped at work - and honestly, it's much more down to the organisation I work for. But I could easily see it being hell in a different field.

(Then last month we had some stupid crap ~diversity workshop~ thing, and I kid you not - one of my colleagues literally started mansplaining at me in the diversity workshop so I said "OK, this clearly isn't going to do any good at all" and walked out. Win some, lose some.)

I think this is really astute! ... And relatedly, I feel like, one of the challenging things about working through your own issues/inner conflicts is being able to find language you feel comfortable with using about them. All the clickbait about young people feeling more comfortable communicating in emoji makes me think of this as well. And part of me feels like a stereotypical "woo woo Californian" talking about my personal issues in astrological terms, but I also have a tendency to be very "closed off" and a desire to be viewed as "bulletproof," and if in order to deal with shit and not destroy myself, my self-talk is about "my Saturn in Cancer problem" or my "Sun-Moon square aspect" then, that's what it is, for now.

― sarahell, Thursday, August 1, 2019 4:20 PM bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, I don't know if this was Captain Awkward or just therapy, but it was a life-changing realisation. That if someone starts talking about "oh my moon is in Aquarius" or "Mercury is in retrograde!" it is extremely unhelpful to start lecturing them on astronomy. They're giving you information about their feelings in a language that feels comfortable for them. It's OK to ask for a little help, and say "hmm, I don't know any Aquarians, what do they tend to be like?" or slowly start to grok that "Mercury is in Retrograde" means that they are in a bad mood or feel really overwhelmed like everything's going wrong at once. But these are feeling-languages, and you don't come back to feeling-language with Logic Robot answers. Meeting people where they are is important. And often, these languages that are designed for feelings, *are* better at communicating feelings.

one of my colleagues literally started mansplaining at me in the diversity workshop

oh dear .... is he usually insufferable, or is this someone that is normally "one of the good ones"? ...I think the social justice stuff about "sitting with discomfort" regarding privilege, white supremacy, etc. is good, in that it is realistic. That these systemic problems and power imbalances are challenging! Change is awkward. ... Anyway, I have a male colleague that is 95% of the time, a "total comrade" ... but a few weeks back, he got super angry and defensive and did something similar to another colleague.

Today I saw that a nursery school friend has opened up a law office down the street from a shop I frequently go to. Should I drop in and say hi? I haven't seen her in nearly 40 years.

Yes! Few things are more tender to me than remembering and being by remembered by someone I knew/knew me as a wee child. This is usually the role of family and if one doesn’t have that, classmates are the next best option! How sweet!

I have ... complicated feelings about people and places from my past.

me too ... I do not want a #GilroyStrong t-shirt, thanks.

everyone does! i was just thinking that preschool memories have got to be some of the most wholesome, yknow? little teeny kids learning how to share and whatnot.

I liked pre-school! There were cubby holes, and carpet squares.

ACTUALLY this post made me look up my pre-school by name and I found the founder's obit from 2014 and it's amazing how as a kid I knew NONE of these wonderful things about her but I sure loved going to her pre-school!

https://obits.mlive.com/obituaries/grandrapids/obituary.aspx?n=janet-m-jones&pid=171817480&fhid=25468

A passionate and acknowledged expert in educationally and emotionally nurturing children ages three to six, her nursery school was authoritatively considered by many the finest of its kind in Michigan, providing children a peaceful, happy, innovative, exciting, and ultimately successful learning experience. For Janet, it was personally and professionally always all about each child's personal development. Every educational decision she ever made first included the question, "What would be best for this child?" An active and accomplished artist throughout her life, she spent her early retirement focused on both landscape painting and portraiture, with family and friends the beneficiaries of her talent. And later, even after her Macular Degeneration became pervasive, her artistic capability still shone through. She continued to paint until nearly the very end.

Amazing. The people in your life who are shaping you all the time and you don't even know.

I'm flying out on holiday tonight, and needed a haircut fast - so I ended up going to the men's barbershop on the high street. To my surprise, the very sweet young Desi man did agree to shave the back of my head - I was honestly expecting to be ma'amed and gently shown the door. But it was a slow morning and he had nothing else to do. But it is so difficult. He kept trying to talk me out of it, and "let me give you a cute fade" and "let me make that pretty for you" and, without outing myself, I tried very hard to pull the old "I'm too OLD to care about being pretty, just shave it please" at which he started with "aw, you're not old!" in a flirty way which is just... I mean, it was sweet and obviously well intentioned. But where is that world where I get to just get a man's haircut without an argument over it?

I'm having a lot of feelings at the moment. It's really complicated. Like, I am really glad that ILX has become a more trans-friendly and welcoming place. And that, for new people coming out now, it looks so... not easy, because coming out is rarely easy, but it looks... relatively drama free.

But, without wanting to rain on anyone else's parade... (that's why I'm saying it on this thread, which feels a lot safer than that thread) but it's bringing up a lot of old, raw, painful memories of how it was when I started this journey, over 5 years ago now, on ILX.

How much resistence I faced, how much people board lawyered and fought for their 'right' to deadname me, how I was accused of all those Trans Stereotypes: that I was trying to fool people; that I was trying to hide something; oh the crazy-shaming, so much crazy-shaming. How many people demanded to know intimate details of stuff I was barely daring to share with my therapist at the time, and certainly wasn't ready to share with hostile strangers - rather than accept what I was asserting - that I was absolutely, completely sure that I no longer wanted to be called by *that* name (though I wasn't even entirely sure what it was yet, that was forcing itself to be born into the life I had struggled to banish it from).

It was such a hellish time, such an unecessarily hellish time, and in the ~new kinder gentler ILX era~ I feel like memories have faded for other people of how it was then, because it's so different now. But I still live with those memories, when seeing certain words, certain names on ILX just trigger (in the psychological sense of the word) such a sense of panic and terror that I don't know if I will ever be entirely without. This is the first time, in any space, trans or mixed, that I've encountered someone whose shiny new beautiful trans name, is the deadname that I went through such hell - specifically on ILX - to get people to *stop* using. And it's fucking weird. But I want to place that weirdness in the correct place - not even remotely on the person who's chosen that name - but on the people who made it SO HARD for me to get out of that name in the first place.

I'm really happy that it's going well for newer people coming out! I really am! I just wish it didn't bring back such awful memories for me, and such rage that it went so badly for me. It's bittersweet, and complicated, and I don't know what to do with these feelings. But I just wanted to note them somewhere.

Anyway, I'm off to Vienna (this means nothing to me!) Take care, girls and non-boys.

it's amazing how as a kid I knew NONE of these wonderful things about her
how would you have known? you were a wee tot! preschool was one of the times i remember being happiest as a child. also lonely when i was the last one to get picked up but overall i liked it.

it's bringing up a lot of old, raw, painful memories of how it was
yeah i know what you mean -- i was thinking about the name situation* and wondering if you were handling it ok.

i am not not trans and i feel the old raw feelings from time to time too -- i imagine it's how my mom felt when she saw me unapologetically enjoying liberties she never had. she was never bitter or mean about it, but there was a lot of "are you sure?" even innocuous-seeming stuff like, for example, taking cute pictures of myself all the way to the ability to tell people who don't approve of/like me to fuck off. i was taught to appease when possible, avoid if necessary, and if it gets bad, just disappear.

it's making me want to dig out the poloroids i took of myself in my 20s. i was confused about what my face looked like so i took zillions of photos of myself to try to get an objective perspective. they're not risque in any way but i was definitely trying to look cute! maybe it's safe to share them now...maybe not. in the back of my mind, i feel the encroachment of unwanted attention and NOOOOOOOO THEY WILL ATTACK YOU and i think twice. it's not that i begrudge anyone the ability to take and share pictures of themselves -- i love it -- i wish i could have it too but they will need to be old photos bc i'm not as cute anymore ;) i held back so much of myself because i was terrified of being attacked and it's painful to think about the me that could have been, however fruitless those thoughts might be. i really really really try not to think about it. my life has been ok, and it could have been better but it's alright.

*I think you know what I mean and I don't want to deadname anyone. i know it was very hard for you and i understand why you might feel the way you do. being gracious about it is the only way but that doesn't make it hurt less <3 memories of the bad times have not faded in my mind, fwiw

It's a little bit awkward because it is a part-public conversation and there is part of this going on outside the public boards. Speaking only for myself I think it was necessary for me to have that space to work through things but at the same time most of the people I know here as out weren't part of that space. Now that I am Out I feel more comfortable talking about these things on public boards...

I do try to focus on the positive. There's a lot of bad shit I've been through and all the stuff that people coming out today are afraid of, it's stuff that I've been through and that's still something they are at risk for today. I tried to come out 20 years ago and it was really, really bad. I couldn't do it, I couldn't go through with it, and there was a pretty high price I paid for that.

Every trans person paid that price but those who paid it by coming out, I feel they have the better portion, because going through that rejection and suffering actually made the world a better place, whereas I didn't do shit to make things better by scampering back into the closet. At this point I don't feel guilt or shame for that, but I am immensely proud of every single goddamn person who came out before me, and I owe a debt of gratitude to all of them. Including you, Branwell.

And I am sorry for what you're going through. I know how triggers work. I wasn't present on ILX now the way I was back in the times you talk about. That said, I am vaguely aware of your deadname and the issues you went through with it and, uh, I am 100% positive that the person who came out as your deadname, the fact that their name is the same as your deadname is a complete coincidence. They don't want to cause you hurt or pain and feel absolutely terrible about doing so.

i held back so much of myself because i was terrified of being attacked and it's painful to think about the me that could have been, however fruitless those thoughts might be. i really really really try not to think about it. my life has been ok, and it could have been better but it's alright.

It's kinda the only way to deal, to move forward. I feel like I have so many lost years, as a person, because I spent about a decade trying to be "bulletproof" and some sort of "pillar of the community" (whatever that really means) which entailed a lot of self-denial and labyrinthine boundaries for any doubts, fear, or vulnerability (which I associated with being feminine), but like a pillar, being solid and stable and intimidating when needed.

I actually had a fairly mundane, but actually super positive, thing happen for me at work the other day -- I'll avoid all the boring (or at least complicated) details, but it was basically, something that I had associated with one of my greatest failures and traumatic life events -- I engaged with that thing and helped a few other people successfully (at least for now) deal with said thing.

Oh man, I was in such a Bad Place before I went to Vienna, on so many levels. Thanks for listening to me, and not being judgemental. I just had to get that stuff out, and I didn't know where else. One doesn't want to dwell on trauma or pain or bad stuff - but at the same time, sometimes, you just need someone else to acknowledge that the bad stuff did *happen*, in order to move past it and go on. I am in a much better place now, than a few weeks ago, for many reasons - including that acknowledgement.

Vienna was... a lot. Wow. Stendahl Syndrome is real, people!

Anyway, on another subject, this looks like it might be an interesting book, and I have ordered it:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/sep/02/why-dont-doctors-trust-women-because-they-dont-know-much-about-us

I mean, I don't want to be that person that always focuses on pain, but I learned so much on this thread, about physical aspects of AFAB-related body pain I had not seen or read about anywhere else, and also started seeing discourse around *why* so much of AFAB-related pain just wasn't taken seriously. Maybe it would be interesting to other people here?

Would there be any interest at all, in maybe doing a No-Boys-Thread Reading Group? Doesn't have to be this book (I was thinking about how I thought a lot of ppl here would benefit from reading Kate Mann's Down Girl, too) but after starting my own Queer Theory reading group, I've suddenly discovered that I really love reading groups? Anyone else interested? Or even suggestions of other books to read?

Totally understand where you're coming from, Branwell, and WB. "Down Girl" has been on my "to read" list since you mentioned it... it's a long list though :(

One of the greatest things about reading groups is that they focus you to sit down and read the stuff you've been meaning to!

But I'm not really hearing a lot of enthusiasm around this idea, so oh well. It was only an idea.

I love reading groups but the woman participation on ilx is so sporadic and sparse that it probably would not be sustainable. I miss a lot of my book clubs that died off after a couple of months.

Hi, Branwell! I love that you suggested it but I'm a terrible book club participant bc I never do the assigned reading! Also I exclusively read women-centric/women-authored sci-fi/fantasy so I never get around to non-fic which is what I really need to read for my political education. Alas.

Sorry for not being able to jump in. Also, tbh the new school I work at is pretty strict and since I'm on a track-able internet connection, I've almost stopped being on ilx at all. It's weird, but probably professionally healthy.

Hi, Branwell! I love that you suggested it but I'm a terrible book club participant bc I never do the assigned reading!

I echo this ... I also have a backlog of reading I need to do for professional education/certification that I've been putting off

i am useless when it comes to accepting more responsibilities right now -- i would do a reading group irl because i like hanging w people irl but that's where my commitment ends considering my current work/music/domestic/self-care responsibilities.

it's a pleasant idea to imagine hanging w y'all and talking irl :)

lol I literally run my own book group irl and we haven’t had a meeting in months. It’s really hard and it takes a lot of effort on my part to keep trying to get people together, consensus on a book & then even meet so don’t feel bad about it.

I am trying to get back into reading though, but I’m so out of it - I think I pretty much only read articles atm but I’m fairly starved on fiction and I haven’t read any guilty pleasure stuff in ages.

ha i meant i would do a reading group irl if i didn't have to do the cattle herding! no way

I have spent many years as a professional cat herder and am now semi-retired

Oh good I'm not the only one who sucks at book clubs, I thought it was just me. Every time I'm in a book club I forget to read the assigned reading and then just try and bullshit my way through the discussion and feel guilty about it afterwards.

Aw, so I'm the loser who is never ever busy and has nothing but time and has always done the reading because I have cleared my schedule essentially forever to make space for more reading!

I pretty much refuse to do cat herding. The reading group is the first Sunday of every month because we tried for a couple of months to work around people's schedules and it just didn't work. But it's absolutely fine for people to miss a month and pick back up when they are able.

We also made a decision when we started, to do essays rather than full books, so it would be easier to dip in and out. But it's only been going since the start of this year, so I've no idea if it's sustainable. We don't have to 'agree' on pieces, either. We go round the group and everyone picks, and it's fine to read stuff we disagree with - it's actually more fun sometimes when someone picks an essay that there isn't a consensus on!

Branwell I can't let you calling yourself a loser pass without making a sad face. You are not a loser, you are an awesome person and your priorities are good ones. Your book club sounds cool and I wish I was able to commit to it.

there's definitely cultural baggage and stereotypes that would make Branwell feel like "the loser" though ... "the nerdy girl who has no life" is definitely one of those stereotypes I remember growing up because it was how I was certain other people perceived me.

I was not entirely serious in my pity party! Forgot that British sarcasm doesn't always translate. (Books are way better than ppl to be honest. (Only half joking there?))

((I've just spent all afternoon at a picnic, which was wonderful, and it was great to see so many of my friends, but also completely exhausting and I really long for the company of a nice quiet book now.))

Oh, in case I wasn't clear, the reading group I was talking about in my post there was the queer theory reading group I run in London. Obviously an internet reading group would have had to be run quite differently. (If anyone is queer, and in London, and interested in attending, message me, but I think that's kind of a niche group.)

Thanks for the cheerups tho! That's really sweet. :)

I hate that stereotype so much xpost. I have one friend that *still* tries to make me feel bad about not wanting to go out. It's done jokingly but it's been so repetitive over the years that I just shut him out right away because I was getting angry about feeling forced into doing something I didn't want to do. I like to hang out by myself; people are generally too exhausting. I was talking to my FIL once about how my spouse is always nice to be around because he's always calm and my FIL said "oh, he's super good for loners because he will sit there quietly for hours."

Oh good it's my turn to steamroll over someone else's joke :) Mostly I think this comes from my experiences with self-deprecation, particularly as practiced by people who aren't cis male. I see it a lot and it's something I pretty much always want to push back against even at the cost of feeling like a pedant.

idk often when I make self-deprecating jokes, I am only partially kidding and partially serious

Just bumping for something utterly trivial: after years of searching, I think NYX’s #thisiseverything lip balm might be the best one I’ve ever used? Lips stay soft and smooth long after it’s worn off as well. This sounds like an ad but honestly, if something works it works.

That’s good to know! My homemade lip balm was ok but actually not that great in usage aside from the satisfaction of having made it.

I’m here to complain about pms again. Has anyone ever used any successful treatment for PMDD? I’m SO TIRED of losing my shit for 12/52 weeks of every year.

have you talked to a dr about meds? My PMS got better with Celexa and the Mirena IUD.

I recently worked with several women that were perimenopausal. They were all cutting out sugar, caffeine, carbs to help, although it's likely they were taking some meds too. About half of my periods are super bad but only for a day or two, not wanting to leave the house, being non verbal, nausea, bad lower back pain. I probably should cut out the coffee and sugar again. I remember when I did that once for several years my pms and periods were so easy but I was also younger. I haven't taken any medication (besides for asthma) or bc probably since my early 20s. I almost got mirena but then i think I got spooked that it was supposedly more painful for women who hadn't given birth.

yeah i have been through the IUD considerations and came out on the "no" end so that is not an option.

the main symptoms i am hoping to avoid are emotional; i exercise regularly and have a wholesome diet, have been sleeping better and generally am ok but for 1/4 of every month i turn into a different person, a very depressed and short-tempered one, and one that feels unmoored. i remember reading about dysphoria when i was a teen and really relating.then i went on hbc for like 20 years and it must have helped. then i stopped taking it. i guess i should talk to my doc. sigh. it looks like meds are the only actual treatment. i don't think cutting xyz out of my diet is going to solve this problem.

i wish there were some magical glasses i could wear that would help me cut through the fog and help me see clearly during these times. magic glasses that can see inside my head and also outside my head. and then when people see the glasses, they would automatically treat me just a little bit more kindly because they know i am a little blind at the moment and having trouble seeing clearly.

Do you track your periods? It doesn’t treat any symptoms but it sometimes helps knowing my feelings and reactions on the days before are probably linked to it.