Imperial Aerosol POLL: The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway by Genesis

"Fly On the Windshield" is so heavy/awesome. When I listened to this album again yesterday, I really got into "Lilywhite Lilith," too. And "Back in NYC," another heavy song. I love that Jeff Buckley covered that one.

Oh, and speaking of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlX4moDYEmA

When I saw Musical Box do this, at the time they even had a left-handed balding drummer!

Holy shit, I think I knew this, but the other/former/future drummer, Martin Levac, is actually a Phil Collins impersonator!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O_CMLJRRgw

xp I was very impressed by this detail when I saw them. Esp. when he came out front to sing More Fool Me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRBhbG6jfY8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejs1G2yLBM8

Oh yeah those interviews are great. It's kind of hilarious how much Tony Banks hates on this album, though I believe he refers to "In the Cage" as "a strong piece" or something like that.

Banks seems like the biggest douchebag ever

"It was all very Spinal Tap. Cutting edge but Spinal Tap."

I don't wonder if the accumulated hassle of being drawn out on details about every single one of their albums at the time possibly drove them all a bit nuts, especially given their theoretical rep as a bunch of passive aggressive posh boys (Collins excluded), Banks looks quite angry.

Not theoretical

I think Tony Banks gets a bad rap. He may come off as unlikable in interviews but he's the closest thing this band ever had to a musical visionary. And his playing, especially during this era, is terrific.

true

I've always disliked Banks as a person, he always comes across as this villainous figure who didn't really get what made the band great, though when I go back and listen to the records he always comes across as the guy most responsible for their greatness

Eh, I'm not down with the idea of Banks as alpha visionary. Hackett was every bit the musical pioneer that Banks was, probably more so, and Peter Gabriel, obv., was not lacking in vision - in fact, Genesis was holding him back! Now Rutherford, that dude has no vision. And Phil back then was the most musically talented of them all, I'd say, but his vision was to leave the musicianship behind (eventually) and focus on the emotion/yelling.

Banks I think is the worst kind of prog prig, as he clearly believes that his classical training makes him better than everyone else, and his lack of hits outside of Genesis was because he was too good for everyone else, they just didn't get it.

fwiw individual writing credits do not seem to get broken down until after Gabriel leaves, and revert back to a collective band credit after a few albums. Is there a good guide out there to who largely contributed what?

i wasn't knocking his contributions to the band

but honestly i've never seen an interview with him where he didn't come off as a smug dick

Also, Hackett and Collins are both master level at their instruments, Banks isn't close to the level they are

Just want to repost this exchange from an interview DeRogatis did with Collins/Banks:

Did they ever wish they could lock themselves in their studio, get really stoned and cut loose to make another album as bizarrely brilliant as "The Lamb," I asked? Maybe under another name, so there were none of the expectations that came with being "pop hitmakers Genesis"?

"I suppose if one was doing that, one would probably try to be more off the wall," Banks said, transformed for a moment into the teenage musician jamming in that cottage. "I think the sheer reason for doing it would surely be to try to do a few things that might be disastrous."

"At the same time," Collins petulantly added, "it might be nice to do something like we've just done and call it a different name and see how it's received. By saying that, you're playing into -- what's your name? -- Jim's hands, because you're admitting that, because we're going in and calling it a different band, we actually have confines within Genesis that we want to stick to."

"Well, that's a fair enough comment to make," Banks said, scowling at his partner. "Because there's probably some truth in it."

don't know if I really hear Hackett as a pioneer - he's got a style, but I more often than not wonder where he is on some of these recordings. then again maybe burying the guitar was pretty innovative back then

Being a tapping pioneer alone puts Hackett heads and, well, toes above most guitarists.

I was impressed by an old clip showing Tony Banks playing classic guitar in Genesis, I'll try to track that down.

This is pretty educational:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er2GHuzlUAY

Howe helped revitalize guitar music in the 80s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARERFbiqCfk

LOL. Now that's some music Banks could probably get behind.

On the "great real names" tip, the GTR singer is Max Bacon.

The band should have called themselves Bacon. Everyone likes bacon.

I found this on a Prog forum a while back. Don't know how it was put together but it seems reasonably convincing enough:

TRESPASS

Looking For Someone (Banks-Gabriel-Phillips-Rutherford)
White Mountain (Phillips-Rutherford)
Visions of Angels (Phillips)
Stagnation (Phillips-Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel)
Dusk (Phillips-Rutherford)
The Knife (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford-Phillips)

NURSERY CRYME

The Musical Box (Phillips-Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
For Absent Friends (Hackett-Collins)
The Return of the Giant Hogweed (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins)
Seven Stones (Banks) or (Banks-Hackett)
Harold the Barrel (Gabriel)
Harlequin (Rutherford-Banks)
The Fountain of Salmacis (Banks-Collins-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett)

FOXTROT

Watcher of the Skies (Banks-Rutherford)
Time Table (Banks)
Get 'Em Out by Friday (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Collins-Hackett)
Can Utility and the Coastliners (Hackett-Banks)
Horizons (Hackett)
Suppers Ready
a. Lovers Leap (Banks-Gabriel)
b. The Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man (Banks-Gabriel)
c. Ikhnaton and Itsacon and Their Band of Merry Men (Rutherford-Banks-Hackett-Gabriel)
d. How Dare I Be So Beautiful? (Gabriel-Banks)
e. Willow Farm (Gabriel)
f. Apocalypse in 9/8 (Banks-Collins-Gabriel-Hackett-Rutherford)
g. As Sure as Eggs is Eggs (Banks-Gabriel)

SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND

Dancing With The Moonlit Knight (Gabriel-Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Collins)
I Know What I Like (Hackett-Banks-Gabriel)
Firth of Fifth (Banks)
More Fool Me (Rutherford-Collins)
The Battle of Epping Forest (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Collins-Hackett)
After The Ordeal (Hackett-Rutherford)
Cinema Show (Banks-Rutherford-Collins)
Aisle of Plenty (Gabriel-Hackett)

THE LAMB LIES DOWN ON BROADWAY

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (Banks-Gabriel)
Fly on a Windshield (Banks-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins-Gabriel)
Broadway Melody of 1974 (Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel)
Cuckoo Cocoon (Hackett-Gabriel)
In the Cage (Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel-Hackett-Collins)
The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford)
Back In NYC (Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
Hairless Heart (Hackett)
Counting Out Time (Gabriel)
The Carpet Crawlers (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford)
The Chamber of 32 Doors (Gabriel-Banks)
Lilywhite Lilith (Banks-Rutherford-Collins-Gabriel)
The Waiting Room (Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Colliins-Gabriel)
Anyway (Banks-Gabriel)
The Supernatural Anaesthitist (Hackett-Gabriel)
The Lamia (Banks-Gabriel)
Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats (Rutherford-Banks-Hackett-Collins-Gabriel)
The Colony of Slipperman (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins)
Ravine (Rutherford-Banks)
The Light Dies Down on Broadway (Banks-Rutherford)
Riding The Scree (Banks-Collins-Gabriel)
In The Rapids (Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
It (Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Gabriel-Collins)

Not 100% on everything, and I made a couple adjustments from the PE2 list, such as Cinema Show, which I thought lyrics by Gabriel/Banks, and wikipedia says Banks/Rutherford.

I think Tony comes across as much more likable than expected during his Prog awards speech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUK3QLAvH6Q

I love how all the Genesis guys still appear to be friends. I mean, in the career-spanning doc, Banks seems to be an especially big asshole to Peter! But here they are cool.

So many times during the...Showtime?...HBO?...Genesis documentary from a couple years ago, Tony said, "I quite liked what I'd written on [song], but then Peter Gabriel added his vocals and melody line, and I don't like [somg] anymore." It felt like a running joke by the fourth or fifth time.

Well, Peter's vocal melodies came quite a bit later and I think the band just got used to hearing things without the vocals. There was one song on Lamb--I forget which one--that was supposed to be an instrumental, until Gabriel decided that for whatever reason it needed lyrics

don't know if I really hear Hackett as a pioneer - he's got a style, but I more often than not wonder where he is on some of these recordings. then again maybe burying the guitar was pretty innovative back then

He seems pretty prominent on the pre-Lamb albums to me, even more pre-Selling? Some of his lead playing seems like a prototype for a lot of hard rock/metal playing that came later.

So I listened to this during a long evening of driving tonight. My vote will probably be for "Back in NYC". I also read what Wikipedia had to say about the storyline, almost all of which was news to me, although I've listened to the album many, many times over years. I think it's because the way the vocals were recorded and mixed was really original and distinctive but also largely serves to either obscure the text or at the least take my attention away from it a lot of the time. The vocal sound is very expressive but I'm not listening to the words nearly as much as with "The Musical Box" (a good earlier example of dealing with sexuality and horror btw!) or "Supper's Ready", which is curious for an album where the lyrical narrative seems to have been important to Gabriel.

There's some crazy Hackett stuff on "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight." Crazy Phil fills, too.

Ha, I was listening to "Dancing..." when I was typing that, actually.

Come to think about, listen to Steve's solo on "The Musical Box."

Gabriel sums up what made Hackett an innovative guitarist in a BBC doc from the ‘90s. When the band was auditioning guitarists after Anthony Phillips left, he says, all the other guys they were seeing were “into notes and flash. Steve was into atmosphere.”

xp Epping Forest was meant to be an instrumental, but the lyrics/melody/singing is my favourite part.

Come to think about, listen to Steve's solo on "The Musical Box."

There's a close up of him tapping in 1972 around 4:09 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W35wtfcByIY

Whole solo is classic ofc.

That's the one with Tony playing guitar!

"but honestly i've never seen an interview with him where he didn't come off as a smug dick"

Anil Prasad just interviewed him (not published yet) and said it was one of the best interviewed he's ever done; I know Banks was a huge influence on his life and if you follow or know Anil he actually is pretty dismissive of prog people and uptight assholes in general. So I'm interested to see how Banks comes across.

From interviews, it kind of seems like Steve is the only guy who still unapologetically loves the prog albums. I think he says in the Selling England interview that he thought they were the best band in the world.

Anil Prasad usually gets the best out of the people he interviews so I wouldn't be surprised if he comes off well in it

To me, Banks comes across more "Wynton Marsalis smug" or "John Zorn smug" than "Mike Love smug." This to me is an important distinction.

"Anil Prasad usually gets the best out of the people he interviews so I wouldn't be surprised if he comes off well in it"

his new interview with Jakko from Crimson is simply great.

To me, Banks comes across more "Wynton Marsalis smug" or "John Zorn smug" than "Mike Love smug." This to me is an important distinction.

― Paul Ponzi

who would be more offended at being mentioned in the same breath as the other: wynton marsalis or john zorn?

Almost definitely Marsalis, I would think

Hmm, I dunno, that is a tough one!

Prescriptivist traditionalist vs hyper-eclectic postmodern = no contest who would take more offence afaict but idk has Zorn ever expressed disgust about other musical movements?

No, he's too into his own shit, prolly. Outsider gonna outside.

There's this one chordal move they do several times throughout the album that just kills me every time. Prime examples would be the end of both Broadway Melody and Cuckoo Cocoon. I don't have the firmest grasp on music theory, but it seems like they're resolving to the I chord with the iii in the bass, which aurally conveys a sense of "to be continued"

Grand Parade has the most outrageous crescendo I can think of. I hope someone throws a vote at it. Might have to be me. Also seriously considering voting for Supernatural Anaesthetist. Beautiful chord progression plus my favorite Hackett solo. He's such a fine dancer...

Or Cuckoo Cocoon, which sounds like being wrapped in the coziest warm blanket or, uh, cocoon, which I guess is the point.

Anyway this is the hardest decision I've ever had to make.

"The Lamia" was one that stood out last time I listened. "Back in NYC" probably still getting the vote, though.

Back in NYC -> Hairless Heart is one of my favorite sequences, the way they go from the over-the-top machismo of the former to the forlorn introspection of the latter