Imperial Aerosol POLL: The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway by Genesis

Man, I love Steve Hackett's guitar tone so much, especially the fuzz he uses. I remember reading into it once and he used a pedal called the shaftsbury duo fuzz. I mentioned this once to a friend, who some years later needed to approximate Hackett for a session he was playing on. He bought a clone of that pedal, and it nailed the sound.

Any idea where I could learn more about this? (As you can imagine the title of “The Light” on its own kind of trips up google w/r/t things Genesis have put out containing that phrase)

― You can’t see it but I had an epiphany (Champiness)

There's a famous bootleg from early in '71 in Belgium. Lo-fi, bassy audience tape. (Listening to it again I know the story is that Collins sang it, but the choruses are definitely Gabriel... probably Collins/Gabriel in unison on the verses).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiYa5v6XIbU

Would love to read this if you have a link.

The fact that this album deals with sexuality at all sets it apart from most prog rock, and the way it progresses from the juvenile humor of "Counting Out Time" to the grotesque sexual body horror of "The Lamia" and "Colony of Slippermen" is fascinating.

― J. Sam

I mean, I think "Counting Out Time" is consistent with "Colony of Slippermen" - a lot of the mythology Gabriel is dealing with, deconstructing really, is the myth of the hypersexual male.

Anyway, this is the bit I wrote - it's the only review.

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/unauth/genesis/the-lamb-demos/

I'd be surprised to find out that all he did was some filtering "Grand Parade" (one of the last songs written for the record IIRC). Guitar solo on "Counting Out Time" and the nullification sound effect both fairly scream "Eno" to me.

iirc Tony Banks gets pretty annoyed whenever Eno's (overstated) role comes up. From what I recall from everything I've read about this album (which is a lot, but none of it recently), Eno really didn't do much at all on LLD, and what little he did do was done with the ulterior motive of poaching Collins to play drums on whatever he was working on at the time (Tiger Mountain? Warm Jets?). I'm pretty sure there are no keyboard or synth performances by Eno on this album.

And the "Counting Out Time" solo is definitely Hackett

I wanted to like this album more than I do. Great songs, off-putting production.

Counting Out Time

The Eno stuff is not much of a mystery. He used Phil on "Another Green World," and in return popped in to "treat" some of the vocals on this album. That's it. You can hear it on a few seconds of a couple of songs. I don't think it's Eno's doing, but I still have no idea what the guitar effect used on "Counting Out Time" is.

Maybe it was actually for Tiger Mountain that Eno got Phil? Phil is on AGW and Before and After Science as well.

Weird, I just found a quote from Banks saying that Eno did stuff on "In the Cage," too. That's the first I've seen that.

I love the thought of Banks harrumphing about Eno's non-involvement and getting all pissy about the fact no-one likes his solo albums to boot.

i've been too drunk to read this poll hooray for it existing the answer is probly the Lamia side 4 is shit i'll be back when i've read the other posts

XP - I liked The Fugitive :)

Eno apparently took his EMS Putney with him to the session and routed some vocals through it which he filtered, I'm certain there's no way he'd have played guitar on the album.

There is absolutely no way he played guitar on the record, is that even being debated?

'The Carpet Crawlers', I think, but I've always listened to this album as a fragmented yet indivisible whole. Sides 3-4 are part and parcel of the experience.

I meant it sounds like Eno could have treated the solo on Counting Out Time, not played it

Anyway is also v good, i think i voted for side 3 when we polled the sides on this, the best bit of The Cage is "sunshine in my stomach" tbh

^Do you have a link to that poll? All I could find was the Lamb vs. The Wall vs. Tommy thread

I looked, maybe it wasn't a poll, pretty sure there was a discussion somewhere

"Fly On the Windshield" is so heavy/awesome. When I listened to this album again yesterday, I really got into "Lilywhite Lilith," too. And "Back in NYC," another heavy song. I love that Jeff Buckley covered that one.

Oh, and speaking of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlX4moDYEmA

When I saw Musical Box do this, at the time they even had a left-handed balding drummer!

Holy shit, I think I knew this, but the other/former/future drummer, Martin Levac, is actually a Phil Collins impersonator!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O_CMLJRRgw

xp I was very impressed by this detail when I saw them. Esp. when he came out front to sing More Fool Me

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRBhbG6jfY8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ejs1G2yLBM8

Oh yeah those interviews are great. It's kind of hilarious how much Tony Banks hates on this album, though I believe he refers to "In the Cage" as "a strong piece" or something like that.

Banks seems like the biggest douchebag ever

"It was all very Spinal Tap. Cutting edge but Spinal Tap."

I don't wonder if the accumulated hassle of being drawn out on details about every single one of their albums at the time possibly drove them all a bit nuts, especially given their theoretical rep as a bunch of passive aggressive posh boys (Collins excluded), Banks looks quite angry.

Not theoretical

I think Tony Banks gets a bad rap. He may come off as unlikable in interviews but he's the closest thing this band ever had to a musical visionary. And his playing, especially during this era, is terrific.

true

I've always disliked Banks as a person, he always comes across as this villainous figure who didn't really get what made the band great, though when I go back and listen to the records he always comes across as the guy most responsible for their greatness

Eh, I'm not down with the idea of Banks as alpha visionary. Hackett was every bit the musical pioneer that Banks was, probably more so, and Peter Gabriel, obv., was not lacking in vision - in fact, Genesis was holding him back! Now Rutherford, that dude has no vision. And Phil back then was the most musically talented of them all, I'd say, but his vision was to leave the musicianship behind (eventually) and focus on the emotion/yelling.

Banks I think is the worst kind of prog prig, as he clearly believes that his classical training makes him better than everyone else, and his lack of hits outside of Genesis was because he was too good for everyone else, they just didn't get it.

fwiw individual writing credits do not seem to get broken down until after Gabriel leaves, and revert back to a collective band credit after a few albums. Is there a good guide out there to who largely contributed what?

i wasn't knocking his contributions to the band

but honestly i've never seen an interview with him where he didn't come off as a smug dick

Also, Hackett and Collins are both master level at their instruments, Banks isn't close to the level they are

Just want to repost this exchange from an interview DeRogatis did with Collins/Banks:

Did they ever wish they could lock themselves in their studio, get really stoned and cut loose to make another album as bizarrely brilliant as "The Lamb," I asked? Maybe under another name, so there were none of the expectations that came with being "pop hitmakers Genesis"?

"I suppose if one was doing that, one would probably try to be more off the wall," Banks said, transformed for a moment into the teenage musician jamming in that cottage. "I think the sheer reason for doing it would surely be to try to do a few things that might be disastrous."

"At the same time," Collins petulantly added, "it might be nice to do something like we've just done and call it a different name and see how it's received. By saying that, you're playing into -- what's your name? -- Jim's hands, because you're admitting that, because we're going in and calling it a different band, we actually have confines within Genesis that we want to stick to."

"Well, that's a fair enough comment to make," Banks said, scowling at his partner. "Because there's probably some truth in it."

don't know if I really hear Hackett as a pioneer - he's got a style, but I more often than not wonder where he is on some of these recordings. then again maybe burying the guitar was pretty innovative back then

Being a tapping pioneer alone puts Hackett heads and, well, toes above most guitarists.

I was impressed by an old clip showing Tony Banks playing classic guitar in Genesis, I'll try to track that down.

This is pretty educational:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er2GHuzlUAY

Howe helped revitalize guitar music in the 80s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARERFbiqCfk

LOL. Now that's some music Banks could probably get behind.

On the "great real names" tip, the GTR singer is Max Bacon.

The band should have called themselves Bacon. Everyone likes bacon.

I found this on a Prog forum a while back. Don't know how it was put together but it seems reasonably convincing enough:

TRESPASS

Looking For Someone (Banks-Gabriel-Phillips-Rutherford)
White Mountain (Phillips-Rutherford)
Visions of Angels (Phillips)
Stagnation (Phillips-Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel)
Dusk (Phillips-Rutherford)
The Knife (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford-Phillips)

NURSERY CRYME

The Musical Box (Phillips-Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
For Absent Friends (Hackett-Collins)
The Return of the Giant Hogweed (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins)
Seven Stones (Banks) or (Banks-Hackett)
Harold the Barrel (Gabriel)
Harlequin (Rutherford-Banks)
The Fountain of Salmacis (Banks-Collins-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett)

FOXTROT

Watcher of the Skies (Banks-Rutherford)
Time Table (Banks)
Get 'Em Out by Friday (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Collins-Hackett)
Can Utility and the Coastliners (Hackett-Banks)
Horizons (Hackett)
Suppers Ready
a. Lovers Leap (Banks-Gabriel)
b. The Guaranteed Eternal Sanctuary Man (Banks-Gabriel)
c. Ikhnaton and Itsacon and Their Band of Merry Men (Rutherford-Banks-Hackett-Gabriel)
d. How Dare I Be So Beautiful? (Gabriel-Banks)
e. Willow Farm (Gabriel)
f. Apocalypse in 9/8 (Banks-Collins-Gabriel-Hackett-Rutherford)
g. As Sure as Eggs is Eggs (Banks-Gabriel)

SELLING ENGLAND BY THE POUND

Dancing With The Moonlit Knight (Gabriel-Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Collins)
I Know What I Like (Hackett-Banks-Gabriel)
Firth of Fifth (Banks)
More Fool Me (Rutherford-Collins)
The Battle of Epping Forest (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Collins-Hackett)
After The Ordeal (Hackett-Rutherford)
Cinema Show (Banks-Rutherford-Collins)
Aisle of Plenty (Gabriel-Hackett)

THE LAMB LIES DOWN ON BROADWAY

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway (Banks-Gabriel)
Fly on a Windshield (Banks-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins-Gabriel)
Broadway Melody of 1974 (Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel)
Cuckoo Cocoon (Hackett-Gabriel)
In the Cage (Banks-Rutherford-Gabriel-Hackett-Collins)
The Grand Parade of Lifeless Packaging (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford)
Back In NYC (Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
Hairless Heart (Hackett)
Counting Out Time (Gabriel)
The Carpet Crawlers (Gabriel-Banks-Rutherford)
The Chamber of 32 Doors (Gabriel-Banks)
Lilywhite Lilith (Banks-Rutherford-Collins-Gabriel)
The Waiting Room (Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Colliins-Gabriel)
Anyway (Banks-Gabriel)
The Supernatural Anaesthitist (Hackett-Gabriel)
The Lamia (Banks-Gabriel)
Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats (Rutherford-Banks-Hackett-Collins-Gabriel)
The Colony of Slipperman (Banks-Gabriel-Rutherford-Hackett-Collins)
Ravine (Rutherford-Banks)
The Light Dies Down on Broadway (Banks-Rutherford)
Riding The Scree (Banks-Collins-Gabriel)
In The Rapids (Rutherford-Banks-Gabriel)
It (Banks-Hackett-Rutherford-Gabriel-Collins)

Not 100% on everything, and I made a couple adjustments from the PE2 list, such as Cinema Show, which I thought lyrics by Gabriel/Banks, and wikipedia says Banks/Rutherford.

I think Tony comes across as much more likable than expected during his Prog awards speech:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUK3QLAvH6Q

I love how all the Genesis guys still appear to be friends. I mean, in the career-spanning doc, Banks seems to be an especially big asshole to Peter! But here they are cool.

So many times during the...Showtime?...HBO?...Genesis documentary from a couple years ago, Tony said, "I quite liked what I'd written on [song], but then Peter Gabriel added his vocals and melody line, and I don't like [somg] anymore." It felt like a running joke by the fourth or fifth time.

Well, Peter's vocal melodies came quite a bit later and I think the band just got used to hearing things without the vocals. There was one song on Lamb--I forget which one--that was supposed to be an instrumental, until Gabriel decided that for whatever reason it needed lyrics

don't know if I really hear Hackett as a pioneer - he's got a style, but I more often than not wonder where he is on some of these recordings. then again maybe burying the guitar was pretty innovative back then

He seems pretty prominent on the pre-Lamb albums to me, even more pre-Selling? Some of his lead playing seems like a prototype for a lot of hard rock/metal playing that came later.

So I listened to this during a long evening of driving tonight. My vote will probably be for "Back in NYC". I also read what Wikipedia had to say about the storyline, almost all of which was news to me, although I've listened to the album many, many times over years. I think it's because the way the vocals were recorded and mixed was really original and distinctive but also largely serves to either obscure the text or at the least take my attention away from it a lot of the time. The vocal sound is very expressive but I'm not listening to the words nearly as much as with "The Musical Box" (a good earlier example of dealing with sexuality and horror btw!) or "Supper's Ready", which is curious for an album where the lyrical narrative seems to have been important to Gabriel.

There's some crazy Hackett stuff on "Dancing with the Moonlit Knight." Crazy Phil fills, too.

Ha, I was listening to "Dancing..." when I was typing that, actually.

Come to think about, listen to Steve's solo on "The Musical Box."