Imperial Aerosol POLL: The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway by Genesis

Pre-Lamb was fantasy; Lamb was sci-fi.

(WOMAD aside, which left out Steve)

? dinnerboat, Monday, July 8, 2019 7:57 AM

He showed up at the end! (To do The Knife, of all things, which he isn't on the studio recording of...)

Anyway is definitely under-appreciated, I think it's an early song they resurrected. Or was that Counting Out Time? Maybe both. I think there's also a few bits from this early 20-minute epic they wrote and never recorded, but spent the next decade cannibalising for various tracks.

Side 4 largely a waste of time imo, esp. Banks's lyrics he had to come up with cos Gabriel ran out of steam.

? Zeuhl Idol (Matt #2)

It's "Anyway", from the rejected soundtrack to some art-porn film from around the time of _Trespass_. Peter's lyrics are a significant improvement over the original, which is along the lines of "I am the mad mad scientist". And yeah, "Lilywhite Lilith", as well as bits of "The Colony of Slippermen", cops from a piece called "The Light" they used to play in concert in the pre-Nursery Cryme era (with Phil on vocals!)

I have sort of a fondness for "The Light Dies Down On Broadway", if only because the spectacle of Tony Banks trying to do a recap of the previous hour and change, as if any of it made the slightest bit of goddamn sense whatsoever, at a point where there's only three more goddamn songs left on the album anyway, is like getting Chris Chibnall to do a recap of one of Moffat's seasons of Who.

Very rare to find a double concept album that doesn't fall to bits in the back half. You get side 3, where they randomly decided to stick all the guitar solos - aside from that Hackett is mostly doubling Banks, to the point where you can't even tell he showed up for the record, particularly when he's doing that tapping stuff.

I don't know if Peter's lyrics really let it down. Yeah, there's clunkers, but the entirety of "Broadway Melody of 1974" is just Gabriel doing a list song like he's Roger Waters, which doesn't keep it from being a stone fucking classic (funnily enough one of the few interviews with Waters from the mid '70s he spends most of the time slagging off Genesis in some obscure beef). I guess they don't mesh with the music, but I just don't feel like "The Lamia" or "The Colony of Slippermen" are nearly as strong musically as "In the Cage" or "Back in NYC" - a gem like "Anyway", which isn't enough to anchor a side, is just out there unsupported. Then you get weird pseudo-ambient Eno wannabes like "Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats" (pretty sure that's not actually Eno), which is lovely and I might actually vote for it just to be contrarian but doesn't mesh or flow with anything else anywhere, Banks doing a mega-squiggly synth solo on "Riding the Scree"... I mean it's still better than pretty much anything on "Tales" (and Genesis knew it - read the interviews of the time and they're going out of their way make it clear that _their_ obscure double concept album is nothing like Yes's recent disaster).

Listening now, and forgot how much I love "In The Cage". But because I started with Genesis in the 80's and worked backwards through their discography, it still sounds wrong to my ear to have Gabriel singing this tune (as opposed to Phil Collins on the "3 sides live" version)

I feel the same way about Carpet Crawlers, since I got to know and love the Phil-sung version on Seconds Out long before I heard the studio version with Gabriel. I still think the song suits Phil's voice better. In The Cage, though, suits Gabriel's vocals far better I think.

Lots of contenders. Going for "The Lamia" in the long run. Tony is the most underrated member of Genesis.

"
It's "Anyway", from the rejected soundtrack to some art-porn film from around the time of _Trespass_"

this is actually from the "Jackson Tapes" which was released a few years ago with the albums on a cd of outtakes in a box set.

"A BBC television producer heard about Genesis in late 1969 when they were based in the cottage owned by Richard Macphail's parents. He came down to see them and thought they might be the sort of group he was looking for who could write some music for a TV programme about artist Mick Jackson and his painting. The band put together 4 tracks and then went into a BBC studio on 9th January 1970 to record them. The resulting mono tape featured 15 minutes of music. One interesting thing is that Paul Samwell-Smith (of Yardbirds fame) did the production on this recording.

A copy of the master tape together with some rapidly hand-written notes describing the ideas for the proposed programme were put together to give to a commissioning editor who would approve it. It's this copy tape (and the notes) that came to light at the end of 2001 and which were initially offered for sale via auction. No-one knows where the actual master tape of the session is or indeed if it still exists.

The four tracks recorded during the session were referred to in the notes as relating to themes of Provocation, Frustration, Manipulation and Resignation although these are not the titles of the tracks that the band gave them. These tracks contain some very interesting hints of things to come:

- Provocation includes a theme from Fountain of Salmacis plus much of what ended up in Looking For Someone (Ant remembers that the end of Looking For Someone as we know it from the version on Trespass developed here).

- Frustration is an early version of Anyway from The Lamb but with totally different lyrics.

- Manipulation is a version of F Sharp that we now know from Ant's Archive Collection (and is an early version of what became ‘Musical Box’) although this is more fully arranged with Tony Banks adding an organ part to Ant & Mike's 12-strings.

- Resignation includes parts of a track from that period called Peace which Genesis never used anywhere else."

(copied from elsewhere on the internet)

Eno's only involvement is treating the vocals on "Grand Parade", right? he might as well not even be credited.

Pretty much there, maybe Counting Out Time or Cuckoo Cocoon, places with treated vox.

Eno apparently provided a lot of "Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats".

The Lamb remains one of my top 3 greatest albums of all time. Even the tracks at the end of disc 2, which sound like an amalgamation of each other, have a chill vibe that complements the rest of the album.

For me there are quite a few tracks that top 'In The Cage' so I will be sad if it wins the poll. 'In The Cage' is the only track on this double album where I can picture people bobbing their heads to a high tempo; coincidentally, upbeat folk might unite their vote on that one.

Also it might suck up votes from 80's Genesis lovers.

I need to keep telling myself that I shouldn't care about other people's opinions on this album.

And yeah, "Lilywhite Lilith", as well as bits of "The Colony of Slippermen", cops from a piece called "The Light" they used to play in concert in the pre-Nursery Cryme era (with Phil on vocals!)

Any idea where I could learn more about this? (As you can imagine the title of “The Light” on its own kind of trips up google w/r/t things Genesis have put out containing that phrase)

There's "In The Cage", which is great. I don't have the words for it but there's a sense in which the way the melodies are used gives a sense of zooming in and out of the situation.

Yeah, the moment(s) in "In the Cage" where it abruptly shifts from minor to major ("If I keep self control...") have this exhilarating change-of-perspective effect.

Pre-Lamb was fantasy; Lamb was sci-fi.

― dinnerboat, Monday, July 8, 2019 3:28 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

This pretty much sums it up musically and lyrically. On the Lamb, all the knights-and-ladies-and-dragons-and-lawnmowers imagery is replaced with chromed-out urban surrealism and contemporary pop culture references.

Also some heavy grooves!

I've written about this elsewhere, but it's a very relatable album from a genderqueer perspective.

Would love to read this if you have a link.

The fact that this album deals with sexuality at all sets it apart from most prog rock, and the way it progresses from the juvenile humor of "Counting Out Time" to the grotesque sexual body horror of "The Lamia" and "Colony of Slippermen" is fascinating.

One of my favourite moments on the album is halfway through "In the Cage" with fuzz bass and toms under the woozy harmonies on "and he looks at me without a sound," which is clearly cribbing from Tomorrow Never Knows.

Dug out the CD today to re-read Gabriel's story in the liner notes, now my head kinda hurts.

i voted for "waiting room" bc it's the most amazing shit ever when you're really stoned but now i'm thinking i should've gone for "slippermen"

i cannot believe people itt do not like "slippermen"

keep your fingers out of my eye

Man I love Slippermen. "Me? ... Like you? ... like that??"

"Don't delay, dock the dick!"

It's a yellow plastic... ~~shoobedoobe~~

Outrageous Google Doc with the story and links and photos, fan art etc:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ITGpu-3WK7bTSTLxefdQGC0O6renCkka7LH4cKkxHwU/edit#

Slippermen is so catchy and fun. At some point for me it went from being mildly embarrassing to endearingly ridiculous.

Just realised that I have 5.1 mixes of all the Genesis rekkids, wish I had an A/V amp to listen to The Lamb in surround! Can anyone report on that?

That cool little interlude connecting "In the Cage" and "Grand Parade" deserves a vote.

Oh yeah I love that part. Also the flute solos in "Cuckoo Cocoon" are so gorgeous.

That google doc is bonkers.

Anyone else rep for the live version on the Archive 1967–75 box set? It sounds great to me, and the fact that Gabriel's vocals and Hackett's guitar are re-recorded doesn't bother me in the slightest.

The overdubs bugged me at first but now I enjoy it as an ersatz reunion.

I saw The Musical Box do this album, with the original costumes and slides. It was awesome.

I have not played this record (the only Genesis album I own) since high school, 40+ years ago.

Likewise, although I used to own several more that went away in my great punk rock prog purge. Listening today, even on earbuds at work, the remastered cd sound is wonderful. I'm amazed how many of the lyrics and little musical details I remember; I must have played it a lot more at the time than I thought. I do think the second half trails off, I know I played the first LP way more than the 2nd.

Back then I would have voted "Broadway Melody," I lived for lyrics like "smell of peach blossom and bitter almonde..." Now, I'm not so sure.

"Eno apparently provided a lot of "Silent Sorrow in Empty Boats"."

I don't believe that's true; I used to think that as well but everything I've read indicates that he only did treatments on Grand Parade (and it shows there). Also, welcome back, Geir.

there's a rather expensive book that was put together documenting everything about this album; it's probably OOP now, it was a very limited run and a really exhausting labor of love for the guy who did it. Site appears to be down right now for some reason but it might come back up. https://jonkirkman.co.uk/?product=genesis-the-lamb-lies-down-on-broadway-signed-hardback-copy

Guitar solo in Counting Out Time is very Eno, but I've only ever heard of him contributing to Grand Parade

Man, I love Steve Hackett's guitar tone so much, especially the fuzz he uses. I remember reading into it once and he used a pedal called the shaftsbury duo fuzz. I mentioned this once to a friend, who some years later needed to approximate Hackett for a session he was playing on. He bought a clone of that pedal, and it nailed the sound.

Any idea where I could learn more about this? (As you can imagine the title of “The Light” on its own kind of trips up google w/r/t things Genesis have put out containing that phrase)

― You can’t see it but I had an epiphany (Champiness)

There's a famous bootleg from early in '71 in Belgium. Lo-fi, bassy audience tape. (Listening to it again I know the story is that Collins sang it, but the choruses are definitely Gabriel... probably Collins/Gabriel in unison on the verses).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiYa5v6XIbU

Would love to read this if you have a link.

The fact that this album deals with sexuality at all sets it apart from most prog rock, and the way it progresses from the juvenile humor of "Counting Out Time" to the grotesque sexual body horror of "The Lamia" and "Colony of Slippermen" is fascinating.

― J. Sam

I mean, I think "Counting Out Time" is consistent with "Colony of Slippermen" - a lot of the mythology Gabriel is dealing with, deconstructing really, is the myth of the hypersexual male.

Anyway, this is the bit I wrote - it's the only review.

https://rateyourmusic.com/release/unauth/genesis/the-lamb-demos/

I'd be surprised to find out that all he did was some filtering "Grand Parade" (one of the last songs written for the record IIRC). Guitar solo on "Counting Out Time" and the nullification sound effect both fairly scream "Eno" to me.

iirc Tony Banks gets pretty annoyed whenever Eno's (overstated) role comes up. From what I recall from everything I've read about this album (which is a lot, but none of it recently), Eno really didn't do much at all on LLD, and what little he did do was done with the ulterior motive of poaching Collins to play drums on whatever he was working on at the time (Tiger Mountain? Warm Jets?). I'm pretty sure there are no keyboard or synth performances by Eno on this album.

And the "Counting Out Time" solo is definitely Hackett

I wanted to like this album more than I do. Great songs, off-putting production.

Counting Out Time

The Eno stuff is not much of a mystery. He used Phil on "Another Green World," and in return popped in to "treat" some of the vocals on this album. That's it. You can hear it on a few seconds of a couple of songs. I don't think it's Eno's doing, but I still have no idea what the guitar effect used on "Counting Out Time" is.

Maybe it was actually for Tiger Mountain that Eno got Phil? Phil is on AGW and Before and After Science as well.

Weird, I just found a quote from Banks saying that Eno did stuff on "In the Cage," too. That's the first I've seen that.

I love the thought of Banks harrumphing about Eno's non-involvement and getting all pissy about the fact no-one likes his solo albums to boot.

i've been too drunk to read this poll hooray for it existing the answer is probly the Lamia side 4 is shit i'll be back when i've read the other posts

XP - I liked The Fugitive :)

Eno apparently took his EMS Putney with him to the session and routed some vocals through it which he filtered, I'm certain there's no way he'd have played guitar on the album.

There is absolutely no way he played guitar on the record, is that even being debated?

'The Carpet Crawlers', I think, but I've always listened to this album as a fragmented yet indivisible whole. Sides 3-4 are part and parcel of the experience.

I meant it sounds like Eno could have treated the solo on Counting Out Time, not played it

that's the story but idk

also my understanding is that Phil at least had always been an R'n'B fan

wait i thought the music was written by all the others and PG just added lyrics?

I think that's mostly true, but "Counting Out Time" was one of Peter's songs, according to Tony (here).

Tony: "It's all about... early sexual experiences, trying to do it by the book." *embarrassed shrug*

Phil and Peter are both longtime soul/r&b fans, as their solo stuff would evince (if not always enforce).

kinda difficult to figure out what music PG actually wrote for the band, obviously he gets a lot of songwriting credits for the lyrics/conceptual stuff but none of his solo material sounds a thing like Genesis. outside of like the first song on his debut

Willow Farm from Supper's Ready was Gabriel's song too, he seemed to write in that jaunty piano-led style in his early days. Personally I could do without Counting Out Time and most of side 4. As I said on the Duke thread, remove about 15 minutes from most of the 70s-era Genesis albums and you have a better album.

Excuse Me from his first album is another of the Flanders & Swann numbers

Iirc Yes would always say their songs kept getting longer because everyone kept bringing in bits and pieces they didn't want cut.

xps I think Harold the Barrel was all PG too.

and yet their albums are pretty economical! outside of Tales of course. but I never really felt there was a lot of noodling or unnecessary bits on them, whereas yea every Genesis album from like 1971-1981 feels like it could've been trimmed

its kind of rough out there for people who collect prog vinyl, you got King Crimson albums that are full of dead quiet parts so you need clean vinyl, and Genesis stuffs 25-28 minutes on a side so you have to crank it meaning the surface noise is often a bit more pronounced. and you need a good stylus as well. but Yes doesn't have those problems :)

I think Harold the Barrel was all PG too.

lol my favorite genesis tune bar none

Love how Gabriel pronounces "Manhattan" like "man had honor" on the title track

yeah, I love that too, it's like, for just a moment, he's Mark E Smith

I’ve always been surprised that Back in NYC was not totally written by PG.

echoes of the broadway everglades

love how everything melts here

lol i'd forgotten the silly Bonzos break in "Counting Out Time"

I’ve always been surprised that Back in NYC was not totally written by PG.

yeah it does have a bit of a Dodo/Lurker/ABCAB feel to it. I still feel like that song is very future-feeling, and that they kind of retreated from this for the rest of the decade

haha Abacab.

I would have said that the one-bass-note-on-a-Taurus-pedal in "Back in NYC" is also very Mike Rutherford, but apparently he didn't start using them until 1976.

Love how Gabriel pronounces "Manhattan" like "man had honor" on the title track

― J. Sam

wait that lyric is "manhattan"?

i have a soft spot for "counting out time"... that guitar break sounds very enossified to my ears, and the lyric, well, the only way i could think to work out sex was by numbers ("try writing the alphabet with your tongue"), and it never really worked for me. so i found that song very relatable.

I'll admit I don't know a lot about the sex habits of Puerto Rican adolescent boys in 1974 New York, but I would assume Rael would be less likely to learn about sex from a presumably non-pornographic instruction manual than an upper-middle-class UK student at an all-male boarding school in the 60s would have been. That's a failure of characterization on Gabriel's part.

*embarrassed shrug*