What's with that constant cymbal tapping in jazz drumming?

"Believe me, all these young kids growing up in inner city schools, before they get into the rap they should know who Coltrane and Ellington were"

"I just think we don’t require skill in art anymore. That’s what perplexes me, because it’s totally commercially driven. The lowest common denominator. But we have great musicians in this country. We just need to water them, like a flower, and let them grow, and respect them and encourage them. But we don’t."

blah blah, same old shit

I resent statements like this that imply that bop is neither "thoughful" nor "cerebral." What, do you think bop solos are just people playing scales really really fast?

But:

Wynton Marsalis said on the Ken Burn's thing that his definition of jazz was music with a particular triplet-based rhythmic swing. (Despite having quoted WM twice approvingly on this thread I'm not a disciple or a particular fan). We are never going to get agreement on where the barrier between jazz and not-jazz should be drawn, but for various reasons I think this is the most practical place. The issue is clouded by the fact that "not-jazz" is too often used as a pejorative term by critics: in my view it should be a purely descriptive term with no value attached.

If you accept this definition "Bitches Brew", for example, is "not jazz" (I love "Bitches Brew" - this is not an attempt to sneak in a denigration of electric Miles).

You can see where my argument is headed: once you look at "jazz" that is influenced by Sly/JB, then if you accept my argument it is "not jazz" and even if you don't there is a quantum leap away from the jazz that went before. We are not talking subtle gradations of difference.

Looking at the characteristics of funk rhythm sections as opposed to jazz (caution: gross simplification/generalisations to follow)

- the implied triplet feel of jazz is replaced by a squarer 4/4 time where 8th beats are regularised.

- much more of the drum kit is given over to keeping time. Typically the bass drum and snare drum will play repetitive patterns as well as the cymbals. That so much more whole kit is dedicated to keeping time gives the drummer the choice of using cymbals to reinforce the regular pattern or frees them up for emphasis/decoration.

- These repetitive patterns can be extremely complex though. The mix of offbeats and on-beats is much more sophisticated than most earlier rock drumming. They would also vary between sections of the song (in some James Brown songs the tendency to stay on a single chord meant that subtle differences in the basic rhythm might be the only or main difference between verse and bridge, for example).

- Because many of the guys playing this style were virtuosi they could maintain and subtly vary these sophisticated patterns while

- The bassist will "lock" with this overall pattern (this is very different from the typical jazz pattern where, as mentioned, the bassist locks with the cymbal and the rest of the kit it freed up for more creative emphasis etc).

- The bassist will also play a repetitive rhythmic pattern, often on a single chord throughout. This has important implications:

1 In jazz the division of time into bars is much less obvious because there is a fairly even flow of quarter beats on cymbal and bass. In funk the more typical pattern is for the bass and drums to come together strongly on the "one" beat of the bar followed by the drums and bass playing divergent but complementary patterns of off and on beats. Hence in Funkadelic the constant quasi-mystical reference to the "One". (Just to illustrate how simplistic this is the repetition could be over two bars not one, so the "One" is emphasised only every second bar; and some patterns manage to emphasise the "One" even though neither the bass or drums play the one beat!

2 Funk tends to be harmonically very simple and is glued together by the bass playing a repetitive harmonic pattern. Jazz tunes tend to go on a harmonic journey coming "home" by resolving to the tonic periodically every 8 or 16 or 32 bars. Funk typically comes "home" harmonically at the beginning of every bar when the bass thumps out the root note of the chord. In any case the bass's use of repetitive patterns glues the harmony together.

One consequence of this is that extremely discordant elements can be introduced. The discordant elements in jazz tend to be "controlled": increasingly discordant harmonies are introduced as the music develops and the ear accepts these for two reasons:

1 These discordant harmonies are resolved to the more consonant tonic.

2. With familiarisation the jazz fan learns to regard these harmonies as beautiful (or semi-consonant) in themselves.

In funk the second reason can effectively be done away with: the "glue" of the harmonically repeated bassline and the return "home" to the root at the beginning of every bar means that the ear will tolerate a much greater amount of temporary dissonance, because it is so transient. There is no need for the dissonance to be controlled or consonant to the "educated" ear. This has huge implications for rap and other sample-based forms where the
samples of non-musical materials, or music from different keys can be collaged together and be made to sound congruous by the repetitive harmonic and rhythmic patterns of bass and drums.

(A similar effect is achieved in a lot of free jazz where the use of modal harmonic background means that extreme discordancy can be offset by a continual returning home to harmonic familiarity. That's why lots of listeners brought up on funk or certain rock forms can respond more easily to free jazz than to mainstream jazz: it's a smaller leap, because it's much closer to what they are musically familiar with).

-- ArfArf (ArfAr...) (webmail), January 16th, 2003 6:18 AM. (link)

best post on ILM i've read in two years

(Wish I had something of importance to add to it...)

The bass is the pulse, the drums are also to a certain extent, but they're more there to provide color and accents. There's a soloist trying to play over chord changes on top, so you can't have the drummer playing all this thunderous stuff all over the kit (at least in swing, bop, etc.) Jazz drumming is significantly more subtle than rock drums, and if you listen closely, you may realize that there's a lot more going on besides the ride cymbal than you realize (light comping on the snare, kick etc.)

If you want examples of music where I especially like the sound of the percussion and like the rhythmic approach, I would point to: most Arabic music (limiting it to styles from before the 80s) and most salsa, as well as most Sun Ra. There are some examples in rock, but not all that many really.

Granted, it was kind of a dumb question to ask, or to phrase the way I phrased it, but sometimes bluntly asking things that way can lead to some interesting responses. I was pretty impressed with a lot of the responses here.

I just don't like the sound of most jazz drumming (with the ride cymbal tapping as the ultimate annoyance) or relate to its rhythmic sense, at least when it gets into Elvin Jones territory. For color and timbre, I'll take a combination of congas, bongos, and timbales over the standard drum kit any day. Ditto for the typical Egyptian or Lebanese percussion combination (though I don't know the names of all of that).

I don't think it's right to just look at as the primitive ancestor of jazz drumming, because the style has continued to develop there for the last, oh, century or so (both on drumset and the street music bass drummer/snare drummer configuration). It's still jazz, but it's focused on the drums rather than the cymbals and it's dance music first and foremost. For modern New Orleans drumming, I'd check out:

Leroy Jones, Mo' Cream from the Crop (w/Shannon Powell)
Derek Shezbie, Spodie's Back (w/Herlin Riley et al)
Preservation Hall Jazz Band, Shake That Thing
New Birth Brass Band, D-Boy
Rebirth Brass Band, We Come to Party, Hot Venom

Rockist, given what you like (Latin music, etc.), I really think you'd like New Orleans brass bands .

Yes. Ole I didn't like, but it may have had more to do with other things in the music. I did try to listen to what you or someone pointed out about Afro-Blue, but I didn't get it. I do like some Coltrane, but often in spite of the drumming.

(I do like a fair amount of traditional African drumming that I've heard, though I didn't mention that hear, but that's kind of implied in my mention of salsa, so you are right to mention Africanicity.)

Basically, brass bands and trad bands can both do the traditional New Orleans jazz/gospel thing, but modern brass band music can also have a lot more clave and r&b in it.

Great moments on the ride cymbal

xpost:
Yeah, I tink you guys are right, I just wanted to discuss the triplet thing a little and copied that stuff from some web site. In any case, on my instrument I play mostly quarter notes.

That may be so if they're a little corny and riki-tiki, but I find that one of the most important things about the New Orleans feel is that its right inbetween straight 8ths and triplet-based swing.

Then it's usually one or two racks and a floor tom, and your standard snare. At least one ride cymbal, probably a crash too. I'd stay away from the Avedis Zildjians -- try to get a K ride maybe. Ride sound is VERY important in jazz drumming. Then again, for a starter kit, this might be out of your price range -- cymbals can be pricy.

Gretsch actually makes a great little starter jazz kit with an 18 or 20" and a snare that's actually made of wood for not too much money (maybe 5-600?) I think it's called the Catalina Club or something like that.

You could also go for vintage -- Ludwigs are great, or old Premier if you can find it. Old Gretsch drums are the best, but tend to be pricier. There are also japanese kits from the 60s/70s that sound passably good.

I've been using my beautiful little four piece kit with an 18" bass drum and two 20" rides for everything for a few years now, but I've gotten to the point where I don't really like using it for anything but jazz/bebop. Anything else (be it trad jazz or rock) needs a bigger, deeper kick drum with a sharper attack.

Pretty much, yeah. I go in and out of phases of trying to give mainstream jazz a chance. One reason I would bother to start this sort of thread is that I keep coming back to give jazz a chance, and then being put off by it. If I were to just give up on it completely, I probably would never make the types of comments I've made here, since it wouldn't matter any more. I'm still enjoying a very narrow sliver of contemporary a.g. stuff, and that keeps me happy for now. (I really wish Hopscotch records would respond to the check and e-mails I sent them about two months ago. Fuckin' bohemians.) Anyway, I haven't been testing the mainstream jazz waters much lately.

-- Oblivious Lad. (mjlazowsk...), May 6th, 2005.

I have an Avedis ride that I really like -- it's a 21" "Sweet Ride" -- but I generally find I don't like the sound of the newer A Zildjians, especially rides. It's really all about the individual cymbal and your individual tastes though. It's not like the A Zildjians are

It's also worth considering what kind of music you're going to use it for. If you're playing jazz, or anything relatively quiet, a nice complex, dark ride can really add a lot. But if you're playing loud rock it's just going to get lost in the mix anyway and maybe even cause problems.