The Power Of Nightmares/Adam Curtis

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (881 of them)
I love the crack Ledeen smokes. I figure he'll be choking on it over the next year.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 19:13 (nineteen years ago) link

i'm trying to do some amateur google research on the actual relationship between the soviet union and terrorism. can anyone tell me how reliable "www.meta-religion.com" is? they say this:

The Soviet Union also provided training for certain terrorist
groups on its homeland, as well as spearheaded training in the territory of its Warsaw Pact allies. The Soviets sponsored terrorism
as part of an overall strategy designed to destabilize Western
Europe/NATO by supporting international and Western revolutionary
movements whose insurrectional activities would have helped
expand the communist block and further Soviet aims. In fact, a
former senior officer of Soviet Military Intelligence stated that
"ideological sympathy with the Soviet Union is unnecessary: anyone
who helps destabilize the west is our friend."

"A typical member of the Palestine Liberation Army (PLO) selected
for training behind the Iron Curtain received an orientation brief on
expected conduct while undergoing instruction, as well as ideological
orientation prior to departing for Moscow. Upon arrival he was
greeted by the PLO representative there and arrangements were
made for further travel to the individual's ultimate training
destination."

m. (mitchlnw), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 19:17 (nineteen years ago) link

I think the site's name would immediately put me off trusting it - but I don't know anything about it other than that. It's true the USSR had clode ties with middle eastern and north african nations, including supplying technology, information etc. However to interpret this as an attempt at de-stabilising the West, as opposed to persuing limited local aims with ideological friendly nations (remember that a lot of Islamic liberation ideology is shot through with marxism, as were the Irish nationalist militants at certain points) is not, I think, supportable by the evidence. To claim that the USSR was behind all international terrorism, and that these terrorists groups were not primarily striving for the local aims they claimed to be is nonsense.

"Pipes, perhaps the world's leading expert on Kremlin ideology, is left looking an amiable dunce. British viewers, unaware of his distinguished career, will be none the wiser". Oh, please, what misleading and condescending rubbish. I like that the article paints Britain as a nation of uninformed roobs, being propagandized by Moore and Chomsky.

Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 19:29 (nineteen years ago) link

thanks for the input kevin. anybody got any trusted sources on this stuff? i'm the the above meta-religion text that i quoted appearing repeatedly on the web, verbatim, unsourced, which is another strike against its validity.

m. (mitchlnw), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 19:36 (nineteen years ago) link

interview with wolfowitz from phronesis.org, http://phronesis.org/article.php3?id_article=14 :

First of all, the question of ideas. That is, is there anything at all, we talked about this a little off the record, is there anything at all to the Straussian Connection ?

Wolfowitz : It's a product of fevered minds who seem incapable of understanding that September 11th changed a lot of things and changed the way we need to approach the world. Since they refused to confront that, they looked for some kind of conspiracy theory to explain it. I mean I took two terrific courses from Leo Strauss as a graduate student. One was on Montesquieu's spirit of the laws, which did help me understand our Constitution better. And one was on Plato's laws. The idea that this has anything to do with U.S. foreign policy is just laughable.

m. (mitchlnw), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 19:59 (nineteen years ago) link

agree with alba way upthread about portrayal of strauss's influence on neocon foreign policy (in some ways its hard to believe that these people are anyone's unwavering disciples, in the sense that this might require subjugation of self-interest)

m. (mitchlnw), Tuesday, 9 November 2004 20:59 (nineteen years ago) link

(and i'm sure alan knows this by know, but the recurring eno piece was "in dark trees")

Listening to the snippets on the Amazon page for 'Another Green World', it sounds more like 'Big Ship' to me.

James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 03:58 (nineteen years ago) link

big ship's used in the opening sequence yeah, but "dark trees" recurs throughout

m. (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 09:41 (nineteen years ago) link

i didn't know that James - i know little Eno by name, just recognise the style. also thanks Alba, re The Ipcress File.

Jaunty Alan (Alan), Wednesday, 10 November 2004 09:51 (nineteen years ago) link

Anyone interested in the neocons should read this - it's clearly the major source on them for Curtis. Very interesting.

Dave B (daveb), Friday, 19 November 2004 00:30 (nineteen years ago) link

one month passes...
This programme is being re-screened:

Tuesday 23.20 BBC2

Wednesday 23.20 BBC2

Thursday 23.20 BBC2

cozen (Cozen), Monday, 17 January 2005 11:26 (nineteen years ago) link

Was there not a thread on this before? I thought so but found nothing.
Missed it first time round but finally managed to catch a repeat of the second episode last night and was gripped. The choice of narrator helps a lot, Geoffrey Palmer's (I presume) authoriative but human tone explaining the motives and reasoning of governments, neocons and Islamists alike.

Q&A from the series producer Adam Curtis here - note: Will the programme be shown internationally, in America or online?

We are very keen that the programmes are made widely available including in America and although the main networks have shown little interest


-- Stevem On X (stevem7...), January 20th, 2005.

Answers
no DVD release planned because of the range of footage required to clear. a great shame as it seems that this is something everyone should see.
-- Stevem On X (stevem7...), January 20th, 2005.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

the musical choices are really good, he (and his team) just knows his shit. i have no idea how they pull that kind of thing together -- how much footage has to be gone through to find the 'right' bit -- if you think about how many diift news orgs cover the same stuff. it's the avalanches of facumentary!
-- Miles Finch (poptha...), January 20th, 2005.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i need the torrents, and bad
-- Stevem On X (stevem7...), January 20th, 2005.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here y'go:
The Power Of Nightmares/Adam Curtis

-- Richard C (avoid8...), January 20th, 2005. (tracklink)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I've been taping it.
playing brian eno throughout - classik!


It overlaps a bit with his other series on freud. that theme of society and its control reappears.

x-post

the bit I couldn't figue out was in the first part where that neocon wz trying to distort the threat of the soviets: "if there is no evidence for weapons doesn't mean it isn't there" like it was really logical, sensible thing to say. The conviction he had in that. It wasn't like he wz trying to concoiusly create a myth to fool the people so much just that he wz really paranoid but i need to watch it again.


-- Julio Desouza (juli...), January 20th, 2005.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

why that didn't show up in searching i don't know
-- Stevem On X (stevem7...), January 20th, 2005.

Miles Finch, Thursday, 20 January 2005 11:58 (nineteen years ago) link

Does Geoffry Palmer narrate this? I thought it was the maker Adam Curtis.

Masked Gazza, Thursday, 20 January 2005 12:20 (nineteen years ago) link

you are probably right - the voice just really sounded like Palmer to me!

Stevem On X (blueski), Thursday, 20 January 2005 12:23 (nineteen years ago) link

i don't think it was palmer, no.

Miles Finch, Thursday, 20 January 2005 12:23 (nineteen years ago) link

haha

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 20 January 2005 12:44 (nineteen years ago) link

don't laugh at me

Stevem On X (blueski), Thursday, 20 January 2005 12:45 (nineteen years ago) link

I was laughing at geoffrey palmer and you, I suppose, yeah.

RJG (RJG), Thursday, 20 January 2005 12:50 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, he narrated it sitting up in bed, occasionally looking over the top of his glasses.

Peter Stringbender (PJ Miller), Thursday, 20 January 2005 12:51 (nineteen years ago) link

and then Judi Dench passed him another scone and that was that.

Stevem On X (blueski), Thursday, 20 January 2005 12:54 (nineteen years ago) link

Then they fucked liked rabid monkeys.

Masked Gazza, Thursday, 20 January 2005 12:56 (nineteen years ago) link

torrent at bi-torrent dot com under the documentaries section.

Bernard the Butler (Lynskey), Thursday, 20 January 2005 17:34 (nineteen years ago) link

i don't want to download THAT

Stevem On X (blueski), Thursday, 20 January 2005 17:35 (nineteen years ago) link

The programme was good.

the bluefox, Thursday, 20 January 2005 17:36 (nineteen years ago) link

torrents

John Cocktolstoy, Thursday, 20 January 2005 19:36 (nineteen years ago) link

I thought the neocons might have had a good point about the nonacoustic sonar or whatever. If a basic component of equipment simply isn't there, there must be something else they're using that you can't detect, right? It's not as weird a conclusion to draw as the doc makes you think it is. But it ties in very nicely with the WMD stuff in Iraq. Maybe the parallel was just too hard to pass up.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 20 January 2005 20:03 (nineteen years ago) link

I only just saw ep 1, had seen 2 & 3 previously. There are obvious gaps as people mentioned, it can't be a 'total' history of the past four decades. This is excusable but perhaps there is a weakness in that it sees the neocons as in control of events, which means downplaying 'objective' factors. In terms of US involvement in the mid-East, you cannot overlook the oil crisis on the early '70s, which acts on all sorts of things -- the sluggish economy of Ford and Carter which Reagan could use against them, as well, obviously, as the turmoil in the mid-East itself. Also isn't there a contradiction? If the Straussians hated the materialist liberal 50s America, why are they so keen on spreading its values across the globe?

Miles Finch, Friday, 21 January 2005 09:35 (nineteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
OK, so apparently the recent repeat had an 'update' - about the ruling that Al Qaeda does not "threaten the life of the nation" - to the third episode... I knew I should have watched it again.

James Mitchell (James Mitchell), Friday, 4 February 2005 18:00 (nineteen years ago) link

four months pass...
Just finished it. It was great.

Is Century of the Self available anywhere? I only saw the first ep.

Yakuza Ghost Six (nordicskilla), Thursday, 9 June 2005 18:14 (eighteen years ago) link

I was wondering that too, I'd really like to see that.

Leon C. (Ex Leon), Thursday, 9 June 2005 18:20 (eighteen years ago) link

I got it off UKN0va a few months ago.

Ark Hopping (avoid80), Thursday, 9 June 2005 18:26 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh, and the BBC site now has a selected list of music used in the programmes.

Ark Hopping (avoid80), Thursday, 9 June 2005 18:31 (eighteen years ago) link

This is pretty interesting:

Adam Curtis on Cannes and "Last Days

Yakuza Ghost Six (nordicskilla), Thursday, 9 June 2005 18:34 (eighteen years ago) link

The Cannes news is such good news! And condensing it into a single film is a fantastic idea. There was a lot of repetition in the miniseries necessitated by the fact that people had gone a week between episodes and needed a refresher.

I still feel that Curtis didn't spend enough time talking about who benefits from these official nightmares, and how.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:07 (eighteen years ago) link

(He says in the intro to each ep that his documentary will do that, but I never felt that it did, beyond pointing out a small coterie of politicians who became powerful.)

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 9 June 2005 23:48 (eighteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
I was watching this again last night and couldn't help thinking about all this more today. Also someone above asked for soundtrack info:

Music

* Title theme: "The Big Ship" on Another Green World by Brian Eno
* Incidental: "Becalmed" and "In Dark Trees" on Another Green World by Brian Eno
* Incidental: Soundtrack from "Citizen Kane", film score by Bernard Herrmann, 1941.
* Incidental: Soundtrack from "The Ipcress File", by John Barry
* Incidental: Soundtrack from "Investigation of a Citizen Above Suspicion", by Ennio Morricone
* Part 1 credits: "Baby, It's Cold Outside" by Margaret Whiting and Johnny Mercer
* Part 2 opening: "Also Sprach Zarathustra"
* "I've Got Spurs That Jingle Jangle Jingle" (possibly by Singer-Gene Autry; Music-Joseph Lilley;Lyrics-Ranke Loesser, c1942)
* Afghan war: "Colours" by Donovan
* Part 3 credits: "Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head" by B.J. Thomas

I Named Veal (nordicskilla), Thursday, 7 July 2005 17:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Eno!

I Named Veal (nordicskilla), Thursday, 7 July 2005 17:01 (eighteen years ago) link

four weeks pass...
what do people think of this programme now?

Living in no TV land, I have never seen it.

DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Still fantastic. I would love to hear word if the feature-length version Curtis edited for Cannes has found a distributor. The clock is ticking.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:20 (eighteen years ago) link

There's an excellent article in this month's Prospect taking this programme apart very carefully (although it's not entirely negative). Highly recommended.

Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:23 (eighteen years ago) link

is it online?

i haveta say, the 'AQ doesn't exist' line looks a bit thin now. i was never sure why leo strauss was such a big figure in the show. is he more important than, i dunno, hayek or milton friedman?

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I still haven't seen the third/final episode and saw the first one for the first time only a fortnight ago but got all three via bittorrent months ago.

It still amazed me about Kissinger, how rational and beacon-like he was presented as being, but then I don't know that much about him and so the 'convenience' of this series results in one wanting it to consist of twelve hour-long parts or something.

Neocon motto: "Occam's Razor is booooolsheeeet, plus Occam sounds suspiciously Arabic"

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:33 (eighteen years ago) link

What about the antidote, "The New Al Qaeda", that has been showing over the last couple of weeks. Much less flashy/more boring, but quite solid, I think. I found out a lot of stuff about Madrid that I didn't know. It is by somebody Taylor.

PJ Miller (PJ Miller 68), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:42 (eighteen years ago) link

It got a mention (IE a bit of a savaging) on Freaky Trigger

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:47 (eighteen years ago) link

that FT review kind of sums up my problems with TPON. it was very well made TV, which made everybody forget about the fact the argument was rather contrived.

Pete W (peterw), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:52 (eighteen years ago) link

that's a good article. very solid. this is appropriate:

"In fact, the Islamist terrorist threat to the United States today largely emanates from Europe, not from domestic sleeper cells or, as is popularly imagined, the graduates of Middle Eastern madrasas, functional idiots who can do little more than read the Koran. Reid is British, Al Qaeda member Zacarias Moussaoui is French and the 9/11 pilots became militant in Hamburg. The attacks in Madrid last year that killed 191, and the assassination of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, demonstrate that men animated by Al Qaeda's worldview have recently conducted significant acts of terrorism in Europe, a trend that is likely to accelerate as continued heavy Muslim immigration into Europe collides with widespread racism to create a population of alienated Muslims who often feel that no matter how much money they make, or how long their families have been in the country, as Pakistanis in London they are never quite British, or as Algerians in Paris they are not quite French, or as Moroccans in Madrid they can never be really Spanish. These are not powerful nightmares; they are a reality, a view that Curtis may finally come around to when a significant terrorist attack is carried out in London, which British authorities regard as inevitable."

N_RQ, Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:55 (eighteen years ago) link

which made everybody forget about the fact the argument was rather contrived.

maybe but with so much to condense into under 3 hours there's only so much you can mention, and considering how contrived Qubt's and Strauss's ideas were or rather how badly they were put into practice...

I should hold off until I see the final episode though clearly.

Sociah T Azzahole (blueski), Thursday, 4 August 2005 08:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Adam Curtis's argument that al Qaeda doesn't exist in the sense of being something that can be combatted in the way one combats an organisation, still makes sense to me. When I hear terrorism "experts" one day confidently tell me that al Qaeda has a command structure resembling a pyramid and others (as on The New al Qaeda tell me that it's a loose network of largely autonomous cells, then you start to realise how easy it is to see the same reality, and importantly in the context of Curtis's thesis, present the same reality in very different ways.

Why does this thesis now look thinner than it did before? Because bombings have happened on British soil?

Alba (Alba), Thursday, 4 August 2005 09:02 (eighteen years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.