i mean, i see the damages listed but i'm curious if they can argue for breach of contract? do record contracts promise to maintain viability of masters in any way?I’ve never seen a recording contract, but my guess (just a guess) is that they don’t say anything about how masters will be stored... or, at most, maybe some make a reference to something like “the customary standards of care in the recording industry.” (Total speculation here)
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Saturday, 22 June 2019 15:46 (four years ago) link
Anecdotally I've socially known two very successful indieish recording artists who owned their own master tapes of at least one album. They both kept them in piles of household miscellany, and one left hers behind when she moved out of a shared apartment and happily was able to reclaim it years later from the ex-roommate who was still there and hadn't bothered to toss it out.
― mick signals, Saturday, 22 June 2019 16:18 (four years ago) link
Stories like that remind me of this: I Am The Proud Owner Of The Original Master Tape Of Color Me Badd's "We Can Do The Nasty"!!
― frustration and wonky passion (C. Grisso/McCain), Saturday, 22 June 2019 16:33 (four years ago) link
We have an update, sadly.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/25/magazine/universal-music-fire-bands-list-umg.html
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 22:28 (four years ago) link
Note that the loss of the Cadet/Cadet Concept masters by Terry Callier, Rotary Connection, Marlena Shaw and Phil Upchurch et al also meant the destruction of virtually all the major works of a hero of mine who’s not on the list: the genius producer/arranger Charles Stepney. https://t.co/qX6fNCBR3N— Andy Zax (@andyzax) June 25, 2019
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 22:29 (four years ago) link
https://blog.discogs.com/en/the-discogs-top-50-best-selling-records-of-april-2019/
It’s bullshit. This is all bullshit, and you all know it. Look at it. Look at this. Reissues of reissues and barrel scrapings by faded artists of years past. It’s as if the great music of the world burnt up in some big fire {link to NYT article} and there just wasn’t enough to go around anymore. We let this happen. This is our fault. We let a tiny handful of individuals take away our collective musical heritage, bribe our government representatives to ensure we’ll never get it back, and they burnt it. We did this when we bought the same old trash over and over and over. You should be angry. Be angry right now. Do better, damn it. Stop supporting this trash and self-release and support independent artists and labels.
― Ambient Police (sleeve), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 22:34 (four years ago) link
conflating a few different things there and being very hyperbolic, but ppl are mad about this!
― Ambient Police (sleeve), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 22:35 (four years ago) link
This part of the story is so unnecessarily petty, it’s hilarious The letter-grade rankings provide a snapshot of UMG’s marketplace wisdom circa 2010 — judgments that, at times, favor top-sellers with thin discographies over historically significant figures and critically-lionized innovators. Captain and Tennille, Chuck Mangione, Whitesnake, Sublime, White Zombie, Nelly Furtado and the Pussycat Dolls received A ratings. Les Paul, Merle Haggard, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, Alice Coltrane, Captain Beefheart, the Neville Brothers and the Roots were given Bs.How dare UMG think they might sell more copies of Sublime than Sister Rosetta Tharpe.
― space invaders are smokin penises!!!! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 22:44 (four years ago) link
This paragraph address a point made above (re: Neil Young):
UMG’s own lists present riddles. Documents show that the company believed it had lost recordings by one of music’s most zealous audiophiles, Neil Young — whose website offers high-resolution versions of his complete discography, presumably sourced from the original masters. It is unclear if the Young recordings thought by UMG to have been destroyed were safety copies of the four albums he recorded for Geffen in the 1980s or outtakes from the sessions for those albums, or if UMG officials were simply mistaken about Young having had material in the backlot vault.
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 22:55 (four years ago) link
It really is stunning how much better off we’d be right now if Pono had taken off
― space invaders are smokin penises!!!! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 22:57 (four years ago) link
scrolling through that list took an eternity.
we are truly in the worst timeline.
― blue light or electric light (the table is the table), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 22:57 (four years ago) link
This happened in 2008, how far back are you looking to retcon?
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 23:02 (four years ago) link
Oh word, you are right
― space invaders are smokin penises!!!! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 23:03 (four years ago) link
Look at it. Look at this. Reissues of reissues and barrel scrapings by faded artists of years past.
― Siegbran, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 23:12 (four years ago) link
I wonder if Young's people didn't acquire/rip copies of the Geffen recordings for the Archives at some point before the fire (possibly when assembling Lucky 13 back in the early '90s)?
― frustration and wonky passion (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 23:34 (four years ago) link
Surprised Randy Newman isn't on the list for Bad Love at least, given his Dreamworks contemporaries (Wainwright and Furtado) showing up here.
― ... (Eazy), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 23:42 (four years ago) link
Bad Love Burned (But He Don't Know It)
― frustration and wonky passion (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, 25 June 2019 23:45 (four years ago) link
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― Bee OK, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 23:49 (four years ago) link
NEVER HEARD OF uh wait
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 25 June 2019 23:50 (four years ago) link
Joe Jackson and The Four Tops. :'(
― Dee the (Summer-Hating) Lurker (deethelurker), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 01:59 (four years ago) link
Ashlee SimpsonThe Simpsons
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 02:00 (four years ago) link
That's weird about Joe Jackson, because Intervention Records has been doing vinyl reissues of his A&M stuff "From The Original Tapes".
― frustration and wonky passion (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 02:57 (four years ago) link
You know, the original cassette versions.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 03:15 (four years ago) link
The “caveats” before the list mean it’s basically pointless, and that the headline is straight-up false.
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 03:17 (four years ago) link
Complaints complaints
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 03:20 (four years ago) link
Harold Faltermeyer!
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 03:22 (four years ago) link
F’in NY Times, I swear
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 03:28 (four years ago) link
it's a large but incomplete list of artists who had material that umg believed with "reasonable certainty" had been "destroyed." that seems worth publishing.
― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 03:45 (four years ago) link
I disagree, especially under that headline. With those caveats, it’s a worthless list.
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 04:10 (four years ago) link
Then one day morrisp is buried under all the tape ashes, dim cries of 'fake news' are heard from its depths.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 04:22 (four years ago) link
Fake news, right. Try me...My point here is — if I jump right to the list (which is what most readers will probably do, skipping or merely skimming the article) and see my favorite artist, “The Simpsons,” all I know is that in 2009-10, UMG believed that some of that artist’s masters may have been lost in the fire — despite the label’s “insoluble discographical puzzle,” and the fact they were wrong about Neil Young, etc. I haven’t actually learned anything of value, and the definitive-looking monolith of names implies certainty and gravity that the article takes pains to undercut as a prelude (probably b/c they know exactly how the list will come off). None of this is to let UMG off the hook; but printing that list, especially under that headline, is stupid and bad.
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 04:36 (four years ago) link
“If I don’t read the article I may draw the wrong conclusions from it, therefore they should not have published it.”
― quelle sprocket damage (sic), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 04:38 (four years ago) link
I read the article. R.E.M. is on the list — does that mean they lost only the master tape of “Voice of Harold,” or their entire IRS discography? Or nothing at all? We won’t know until it’s investigated further. So what have I learned?
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 04:39 (four years ago) link
Melissa Manchester :(
― Creames Fartpoop, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 04:43 (four years ago) link
The problem in many ways is simply that a negative can't be proved. A slew of items were lost, a large amount, with no accounting of exactly what it all was. Assume though that UMG somehow accounts for everything else it has access to elsewhere (doubtful obv but this what they claim to be doing right now). Theoretically you could then claim that whatever else is missing based on what label holdings they had equals what is actually gone.
For all my cracks, morrisp ain't wrong on the one hand, but spelling out the implications -- via a monolith, if you like -- has a role. And if UMG was already sorting, prioritizing and assuming, that itself is a sign.
― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 04:44 (four years ago) link
And if UMG was already sorting, prioritizing and assuming, that itself is a sign.
and if umg also spends 11 years covering up what happened, not even telling many of its own artists, then someone has to do the work of sifting through those ashes. if not for the nytimes' reporting, there'd be no lawsuit, there'd be no public awareness, and a lot of artists would still have no idea where there masters were.
― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 04:50 (four years ago) link
*their* masters, d'oh
― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 04:51 (four years ago) link
does that mean they lost only the master tape of “Voice of Harold,” or their entire IRS discography? Or nothing at all? We won’t know until it’s investigated further. So what have I learned?
you -- and quite possibly rem -- have learned that *something* has been lost. there'd probably be no way to get to the next step, the step of itemizing that loss, without going through this step, the step of acknowledging the loss, first.
― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 04:53 (four years ago) link
We won’t know until it’s investigated further. So what have I learned?good point, we should wait until UMG release the results of the investigation. shame on Rosen for rushing to print so soon after the disaster.
― quelle sprocket damage (sic), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 05:10 (four years ago) link
you -- and quite possibly rem -- have learned that *something* has been lost. there'd probably be no way to get to the next step, the step of itemizing that loss, without going through this step, the step of acknowledging the loss, first.― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, June 26, 2019 12:53 AM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― fact checking cuz, Wednesday, June 26, 2019 12:53 AM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
If every artist on that list lost exactly one non-essential song ... it would still be a huge loss!
― space invaders are smokin penises!!!! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 05:15 (four years ago) link
we should wait until UMG release the results of the investigation. shame on Rosen for rushing to print so soon after the disaster.Snark noted — but you have it backward, IMO. It’s been 9 years since that list was put together; we know it’s inaccurate in at least certain respects, and UMG is now undertaking a new inventory and also getting sued by a bunch of artists, which will result in discovery etc. Why publish this particular list now (especially under that heavily misleading headline)... why not, yes, continue to report on the lawsuit(s) / investigations and what is actually confirmed about lost tapes, rather than fuel speculation.
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 05:23 (four years ago) link
Btw I take fcc’s point that this info may spur certain artists or estates, who were previously on the fence about pursuing any claim against UMG (due to costs etc.), into taking the plunge and doing so (by seeing the name on this old list).
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 05:25 (four years ago) link
(I also have no problem with the chunks of names included in the text of the article itself, in the context of “artists with losses may include and be as diverse as...” — but something about the implied authority of the solemn, alphabetical list printed in its entirely, especially under that headline, really bugs.)
― Consider the coconut (morrisp), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 05:33 (four years ago) link
the reason i posted this list is two fold. first i assumed most on ILM have been following this story and have read said article. second, NYT only gives like three complimentary articles per month and i always get block out of that site for reaching their limit. i was happy i didn't go over my limit this month and reposted the list for reference, without having to go back to that article time and time again.
sorry morrisp for upsetting you.
― Bee OK, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 05:57 (four years ago) link
Snark noted — but you have it backward, IMO. It’s been 9 years since that list was put together; we know it’s inaccurate in at least certain respects
We don't know anything of the sort, unless we're making assumptions about it that are contradicted by the article that contains it
(I have no idea what the headline is, and likely didn't read it, but/as it's highly unlikely that Rosen wrote it)
― quelle sprocket damage (sic), Wednesday, 26 June 2019 07:49 (four years ago) link
The Hollywood Flames
― mark e, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 09:07 (four years ago) link
http://www.impawards.com/2007/posters/things_we_lost_in_the_fire.jpg
― Siegbran, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 09:33 (four years ago) link
L: Jane Petty R: Jody Rosen
― Siegbran, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 09:41 (four years ago) link
Cheech & Chong
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4a/Up_in_Smoke_%28soundtrack%29.jpg
(Released by Warner Bros. Records, so one of the not-lost ones fyi)
― Vernon Locke, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 12:32 (four years ago) link
But this one was on MCA...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Street_Survivors#/media/File:StreetSurvivorsFlames.jpg
― Vernon Locke, Wednesday, 26 June 2019 12:33 (four years ago) link