The car's on fire and there's no driver at the wheel - The Tory leadership elections

How about 'even more fucked'? It's all about the comparatives.

I just found comparing Miliband to Enoch Powell fairly amusing and wanted to share that. I'll leave that there like a giant stone slab.

And I guess time will tell on Boris, I can't have total conviction on it but it seems the potential for things to get worse is there.

It's all about the deep causes. The Miliband mug was party numpties thinking you can move a ways down the slope and just stop and hold things there, pandering. We are a long way down the slope.

I assume comrade alphabet is fond of these lines from Hölderlin's 'Patmos':

Wo aber Gefahr ist, wächst
Das Rettende auch

'Where there is danger, grows also that which saves' would be a shitty, literal way of translating it.

Then again, Hölderlin was Hegel's classmate.

The Hölderlin in the translation I own:

'Where there is Danger some
Salvation grows there too'

höld my bier

Lol!

lol

I thought we'd learned at this point that although Ed might be a nice fellow his campaign was a racism/austerity enabling cowardly pile of shit. Or as Soubz would have it: holding the tories to account, lol

Depending on how threatened he feels by Farage and reacts accordingly, actual far-right people are likely to rally round under Johnson in a way they didn't really under May. Even though there aren't that many of them, at ground level, that's still highly dangerous for a lot of people.

― Matt DC, Thursday, 13 June 2019 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ok that's fair. I didn't quite see it because of the numbers but it can't be discounted.

If we are going to draw parallels with Trump then there are a lot of words but also directly cruel policy like the Travel Ban. A lot of the time its about words being fired back and through the likes of Omar in congress this is also happening. And its the only way to roll this back, we can't just hope that the person in the PM's chair is not going to shoot their mouth off.

xps löl

With the 'precedent' comment it appears you have only started to pay attention recently?

Or as Soubz would have it: holding the tories to account, lol

The other thing was that May managed to sound broadly professional and committed and made lots of noises about fairness and being nice while doing the exact opposite to a lot of marginalised people.

Johnson's actual policies might turn out to be less damaging to some groups of people than May's (his wider policies are likely to be a disaster) but his rhetoric will be much worse, and rhetoric can be hugely damaging.

*spends the entire afternoon saying how May has been a horror and that Boris won't be worse in many ways*

"if you think May hasn’t been a horror for many marginalised people in this country, then go ask some of the asylum seekers deported to unsafe countries (if you can)"

I didn't spend a second worrying about the accusation of being hand-wavey. You shouldn't take it seriously either.

Agree with Matt.

The precedent comment again, was about comparing Miliband to Enoch Powell. Nothing to do with May.

Again, no positive comment or defence of May here, just to say adding racist comments and defences of them to the existing Tory government doesn't seem like it's going to be fine or the same, to me. I think the comments are really important on top of the policy but you seem to disagree. Fair enough imo.

Not to mention presumably a front bench with a few ERG types on it.

But I think this points to what UK politicians have often done in various ways from "Rivers of Blood" speech onwards, to Ed Milliband's immigration mugs and the like. I agree Johnson will be more brazen about it, he will hold the highest office in the country too, but its very much part of a trend. When I said it was mostly going to be racist comments you seemed to suggest that he will do more to enable racist violence?

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, June 13, 2019 9:01 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark

to be fair to our tankie friend here this is not "comparing red ed to enoch"

Thank God ERG stalwarts like Steve Baker, Dominic Raab, David Davis and Liam Fox never held high office in the May regime.

p worried he may turbo charge the erosion of our democratic norms started by may, modelling his premiership on trump. early talk of proroguing parliament not a particularly auspicious start

proroguing parliament is only good not bad when labour does it to noise up the lords

xpost maybe more of them this time and as the centre of his cabinet actively seeking hard Brexit. Dunno really what way he will have to go, guess it depends on how the leadership goes.

Agree about eroding norms further.

I am not sure why, and I say this out of genuine curiosity rather than as a rhetorical barb, why people seem determined to argue that nobody ever could be worse than May? If that's an inaccurate summation then I'm open to correction. I don't know where either you or Gyac are coming from Xyzzz, in all honesty.

It seems fairly likely to me that Boris can be everything May was and more.

I mean sure, you can point to a continuum, but it's not like each subsequent leader is inevitable based on the last.

i feel like i've set out at some careful length where aloh and gyac and me might be coming from, without anyone really making the slightest effort to engage with what i'm saying or even notice it

Look being perfectly calm and posting like you always do is a time-honoured tradition in these threads, either commit to that or stop leaving your pissy little asides in every comment you make, about some argument that only you are perceiving itt.

xp I always notice and appreciate you even if not mutual! Esp your Rory content!

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/223480079681_/Robert-Harrop-Stingray-Aquaphibian-Stf06-Mint-With-Box.jpg

Ah, the Afghanistan years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bt0HR9COX0I

Mark I felt you were relatively subtle - can you elucidate?

Look being perfectly calm and posting like you always do is a time-honoured tradition in these threads, either commit to that or stop leaving your pissy little asides in every comment you make, about some argument that only you are perceiving itt.

I wasn't even commenting on anything you said. I made the same argument several others did and in the end agreed to disagree with Xyzzz who didn't seem particularly fazed by what I said.

I have absolutely no grudge against you.

Like I did my best to try to say "I don't understand your argument" and clarify I'm not being dismissive by that. I dunno, why keep attacking at that point?

I mean, you do insist on posting stuff like this

why people seem determined to argue that nobody ever could be worse than May? If that's an inaccurate summation then I'm open to correction.

the car's on fire, Antonescu is at the wheel ... Billy Bremner is doing the pissed up navigation to hell !

Does anyone really believe that Johnson will actively seek a hard Brexit? It's possible that he's stupid enough to try but he wants to be a Prime Minister for good times. He's more likely to axe what remains of the social security budget and use the money for a massive street party on an island no one can get to.

https://i.redd.it/pnf7ek60ajuy.jpg

The car’s on fyre

xxp
he's been pro-EU longer than a brexiter, and has nothing to gain from a national crisis - fight them on the beaches posturing won't cut it when people are dying without meds and everyone hates him + his wretched party.

Relatedly, the Tory party are so hard up for cash that they've said whoever gets through to the last two will have to stump up £150k each for hustings - possibly* causing the leadership to change without the bother of the members getting involved again.

*but not actually because this is still the Tory party and there can still be a whip-round to cover it fairly quickly.

I reckon he'll end up making even more concessions than May and the ERG will be burning effigies of him and calling him an adulterous lying cokefiend and sex pest.

I saw that and nodded approvingly. Flawless grift to top up the coffers!

the extent to which Johnson pursues hard Brexit and the extent to which he'll push rightwards are the big unknowables at this point. it might be that the Bannon/Farage axis are just drinking chums as disposable as any other if they inconvenience his personal ambitions, but maybe his personal ambitions aren't really focused on being the first legerndary Prime Minister and he's running as a front man for that axis with all the financial and political obligations that entails

xp I agree actually. He doesn’t have any solid beliefs and he doesn’t do well in difficult situations because he lacks the same stubbornness to push through. Plus no work ethic. It’d be funny if every successive leader wasn’t dragging us closer to the abyss.

Look what happened the last time we had a workshy Old Etonian slob running to fat as PM.

he's over i tell you

It’s #WhipsToryLeadersSweepstake and on his Birthday 🎁 the Chief Whip gets Boris Johnson pic.twitter.com/LVjzJBs0ud

— Labour Whips (@labourwhips) June 13, 2019

I thought he was rolling a joint there.

uncancel mlc

the first reply there on twitter is the essence of alt-centrism. just look at that fucking profile

"neoliberal Zionist terf’n’swerf Blairite libtard Britnat yoon red Tory cis-gay centrist remoaner scum. all tweets are pre-approved by my Zionist slave masters"

Johnson didn't actually need the support of Bannon or anyone else in that circle to work his way into the situation he's currently in though. I'm not ruling it out, but given its already been established that he will fuck over pretty much anyone to get what he wants it stands to reason he'd do that to the ERG as well.

he fucked up one leadership challenge, he now has to stand at the most unpropitious moment in the party's history, his personal life is presumably expensively complex, who can be sure what deals he's prepared to engage in to ensure he gets to the top this time round? (leaving aside likely political affinities with other racists)